[net.nlang.celts] King Arthur -- placenames, dates, and sources

duncans@unc.UUCP (Stephen Duncan) (08/01/85)

This is the first posting from this group to reach us in months, so I
thought I had better take the opportunity to comment.  I've got a few
details to add to the discussion (of course I missed whatever prompted
it).

In article <217@lzwi.UUCP> nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) writes:
>A few days ago I made a set of pronouncements which a look in my
>Encyclopedia Britannica shows to be utter swill.
	(earlier dates in the time line)
>340 ad	Troops start to be recalled to Rome. Raids by Saxons and
>	Scotti are noticable and lead to a series of coastal forts
>	and watchtowers being built along the east coast.
Hadrian's wall wrapped around both coasts in its initial design to defend
against Scotti and Picti.  If you have access to British archaeological
journals, check "Current Archaeology" in the past year or so for recent
finds about such.  The "Saxon Shore" defences around the English channel
(both coasts) might be about right for this date, though.  I don't have
my reference stuff handy.

>400 ad	Last traces of rule from Rome are gone.
From the Roman records,  410 for the orders, 412 likely for the pullout.
It's nice to have written records of such things.

>449 ad	Celts from West Wales raid and occupy Brittany
There is significant evidence for peaceful settlement.  Much of the
settlement was in what had been forest, though it is true that the
tribal boundaries changed.  Brittany (Armorica) was also part of the
Roman shore defense, under the Roman Count of the Saxon Shore.

>Other Blunders.
>	Mercia is the Danish kingdom centered on Newcastle-on-Tyne
Earlier Mercia was the kingdom of the Angles.

>	I do not believe that the danes went in for fortified
>	towns and so did not leave specific place name derivatives.
>	Note that 90+% of the  roman names have been replaced,
A good many of the Roman names were really Celtic, and several got
severely mangled in transmission to the Saxons.  York really is the
same word as Eburacum: Eburacum -> Eboracum (maybe the reverse) ->
Eoforwic -> York.  The Danes left a great many names behind, anything
ending in "by" or "thorpe".  You might fint the British Ordinance
Survey maps of historical Britain quite interesting.  Place names are
given, when known, in Celtic, Latin, Old English, and modern English.

>If this discussion continues, I will look up Geoffrey of Monmouths version...
>... it is the earliest relevant document ...
>{ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh	 Nigel		The Mad Englishman

Since I missed what the original point was, this may all be irrelevant,
but Nennius and Bede would both be older, the Mabinogian and Triads
arguably so.  Unfortunately the Triads are all in Old Welsh, and I have
never found a translation, only references to them.  Some of Taliesen's
(sp?)(Arthur's bard, maybe.) poetry still survives, at least in
fragments.  Also check the archaeology shelves for stuff on the Saxon
Shore and South Cadbury.

(usual discalaimers about veracity of posting, etc) Steve Duncan