weltyc@rpics.UUCP (Chris Welty (galahad@camelot)) (06/25/85)
I am interested in old celtic legends and epic poems, particularly those dealing with King Arthur and his Knights. We (RPI) have just joined the news community two months ago, and I have seen no news in this group yet. I would appreciate some info on what (if anything) has been discussed so far, and I would also like to know if anyone shares my aformentioned interest. -Chris Welty RPI CSCI weltyc@rpi (PHONENET)
rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Random) (07/08/85)
> >I hadn't thought that King Arthur was a 'Celtic legend', but that Camelot, >et al, was somewhere in the middle or south of England. I could be wrong.. > They were everywhere. But they were particularly in England/Scotland area. -- Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb
friedman@h-sc1.UUCP (dawn friedman) (07/10/85)
> > > >I hadn't thought that King Arthur was a 'Celtic legend', but that Camelot, > >et al, was somewhere in the middle or south of England. I could be wrong.. > > > > They were everywhere. But they were particularly in England/Scotland area. > -- Rank amateur with as much Celtic blood as Haile Selassie will now attempt answer: I've been plowing through a small percentage of the various versions of the Arthur legend(s) from Malory on -- say, about twenty books in the past couple of months. One idea that modern writers have picked up on is that Arthur may have been an actual king of the Celts in England, around the time that Rome gave up on maintaining a presence in Britain and the Saxons were able to move in (the Celts having leaned on Roman protection too long) -- that would be around 400 AD, I think? But I don't know anything about the evidence they used; the Arthur stories were pretty well scattered around long before any written record shows up. What about the monk Gildas? Did he say anything about Arthur, or am I imagining things? The LEGEND can't really be called Celtic in its current multiplicity of forms, can it? Certainly the Angles and Saxons took it up cheerfully enough. When the author of _Pearl_ made his attempt at bringing back alliterative verse (around Chaucer's time) what did he write about? _Gawain and the Green Knight_! But then again... there isn't much trace of Germanic heroic tradition in the legend either, is there? No ring-giving, and not the same relationship of lord to heroes, I think. Although the final battle with its efficient clearing of the scene does remind me of the Nibelungenlied: no population problem in this literature! People who know, please give information. And does anyone know where I can find a textbook in some Celtic language? Somehow there don't seem to be any handy guides in Wordsworth. dsf (tisri chema) and (dawn sharon/the Speaker)
cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) (07/11/85)
I'm sort of fuzzy on this myself, but I think a lot of the things in Morte d'Arthur (or whatever) were borrowed from the Welsh and Irish legends. Merlin is definately Welsh. I believe that Morgan Le Fay came from Morrigu.
bill@persci.UUCP (07/11/85)
In article <281@rti-sel.UUCP> rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Random) writes: >>I hadn't thought that King Arthur was a 'Celtic legend', but that Camelot, >>et al, was somewhere in the middle or south of England. I could be wrong.. >They were everywhere. But they were particularly in England/Scotland area. > Random > Research Triangle Institute > ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb They?? Who? What? Could you explain? -- Bill Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!persci!bill
bill@persci.UUCP (07/13/85)
In article <432@h-sc1.UUCP> friedman@h-sc1.UUCP (dawn friedman) writes: > >I've been plowing through a small percentage of the various versions >of the Arthur legend(s) from Malory on -- say, about twenty books in >the past couple of months. One idea that modern writers have picked >up on is that Arthur may have been an actual king of the Celts in >England, around the time that Rome gave up on maintaining a presence >in Britain and the Saxons were able to move in (the Celts having >leaned on Roman protection too long) -- that would be around 400 AD, >I think? But I don't know anything about the evidence they used; [...] ?? I thought that the "Angles" were under protection from the Romans, and that Hadrian's wall (and another, further north, I think, I can't remember what it was called) was built as a defence to keep the Celts and the Picts out. Other than that, I can't argue. It certainly doesn't seem like a Germanic legend. I vaguely remember reading something about 8 to 10 years back, I think, in a newspaper (no, I don't believe all that I read in the newspapers) that some archaelogists had uncovered a grave that for some reason they thought might have belonged to the real king upon which the legend was based. Did anybody else see this? Does anyone remember any details? -- Bill Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!persci!bill
lydgate@reed.UUCP (Chris Lydgate) (07/14/85)
The traditional birthplace of Arthur is usually given as Tintagel (pronounced "Tin-taj'-el") in Cornwall. "Ancient Legend" places his reign as following Roman occupation of Britain by several hundred years. If he existed, he was probably a Cornish (i.e. celtic) ruler who opposed invasion by the Saxons (English). Of course, later chroniclers embellished the legends with medieval chivalry and Christian practices. Concerning Hadrian's Wall, I think that the wall was constructed by the Romans to separate the territory they had conquered from the Celts from the territory they hadn't. -- chris lydgate c/o the information vortex !tektronix!reed!lydgate
reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP (07/14/85)
In article <484@calmasd.UUCP> cjn@calmasd.UUCP (Cheryl Nemeth) writes: >I'm sort of fuzzy on this myself, but I think a lot of the things in >Morte d'Arthur (or whatever) were borrowed from the Welsh and Irish >legends. Merlin is definately Welsh. I believe that Morgan Le Fay >came from Morrigu. Morgan Le Fay almost certainly came from the Celtic goddess Morrigan, a sinister shapechanger who, on Samhain (Halloween, today) mates with Dagda, the leading male figure of the British Celtic pantheon. Morrigan is a very, very old figure, dating back to when the Celts were in Gaul and Germany. Dagda is much more recent (relatively speaking). There are definitely lots of Celtic borrowings in Arthurian legend, but Arthur himself is probably not a generic Celtic figure. There are no Arthurian legends in Ireland, for instance. There are lots of theories on the origins of Arthur. One interesting recent theory is that he was originally a Roman cavalry captain who operated in the vicinity of Scotland, keeping the folks north of the wall from ravaging the south. Another theory is that he is actually a legendary figure from the Caucasus area in Eastern Europe, whose legend was brought to England by Roman troops recruited from that area. (The evidence here is some amazing similarities between Arthurian legend and Caucasus legend.) Arthurian legends exist all over Britain, but there is an unusually high concentration around Somerset and Glastonbury, in SW England. Some people think that this region was the home of the historic Arthur. -- Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher
jerry@uwmcsd1.UUCP (Jerry Lieberthal) (07/15/85)
> In article <432@h-sc1.UUCP> friedman@h-sc1.UUCP (dawn friedman) writes: > I vaguely remember reading something about 8 to 10 years back, I think, in > a newspaper (no, I don't believe all that I read in the newspapers) that some > archaelogists had uncovered a grave that for some reason they thought might > have belonged to the real king upon which the legend was based. Did anybody > else see this? Does anyone remember any details? > -- > Bill Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!persci!bill I have seen that reference also. In the book "Arthur's Britain" I believe the authors stated that a grave was opened, and they found a "large-boned" individual, and an adjacent grave containing a body with "golden hair". The authors were of the opinion that it could well be Arthur and his queen ..
chris@leadsv.UUCP (Chris Salander) (07/20/85)
In article <6322@ucla-cs.ARPA>, reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes: > One interesting recent theory is that he was > originally a Roman cavalry captain who operated in the vicinity of > Scotland, keeping the folks north of the wall from ravaging the south. > Another theory is that he is actually a legendary figure from the > Caucasus area in Eastern Europe, whose legend was brought to England > by Roman troops recruited from that area. > > Arthurian legends exist all over Britain, but there is an unusually > high concentration around Somerset and Glastonbury, in SW England. > Some people think that this region was the home of the historic Arthur. > -- What I have read is that: 1) Arthur was part Briton and part Roman and took command of a unit of heavy cavalry stationed in Northwestern England after his father died. 2) The garrison was probably centered at Colchester. Chester translates into "camp" and there are many chesters in western England. 3) The Heavy Cavalry (or Knight of the Round Table) were the only ones of their kind in England. They were Sarmatians, who came from the western shores of the Black Sea, where modern day Romainia is. They have large horses, a full suit of chainmail, helmet, breastplate, sheild and lance. The best armed troops of the day. 4) The Sarmatians were stationed in England in the standard practice of many Empires. Troops were stationed in areas far removed from their homeland so they would not have to fight their own kind. The Russians found out about this problem when they invaded Afghanistan with Muslim Soviets. 5) Arther and his cavalry were attempting to maintain some form of order in the years after the Romans had withdrawn. This puts the time frame in the late 400's, early 500's. Britons were no longer Celts, but they weren't Saxons yet. Into this power vaccum the Saxons and Danes came, seizing eastern England. Arthur fought them from Western England using his "chesters". When he suffered a serious reverse, he spent a long time hiding out in the marshes of southwestern England, which is why is he is so well remembered there. (Just as Robert Bruce is well remembered in the places that he hid). 6)Conclusion: Because of his Roman education and his excellent cavalry, Arthur could beat any of the roving bands and independent nobles that stood in his way. Whether he could stand up to the organized armies of the invaders depended on how much support he got from the Britons. - Christopher Salander (descended from the Crosbys of Lancastershire, England, the McLaughlins, Welshes, and Slatterys of Kilrush and other places in Erie) (and the Salanders of Gerfle, Swerge, the Martels of Bornholm, Denmark, the Von Kolms of Mecklenberg, Deustchland, and the DeVeres of France (probably Normandy))
nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) (07/24/85)
Sorry about this but if I use 'rd' I get mail error 11 or some such idiocy. > 1) Arthur was part Briton and part Roman and took command of > a unit of heavy cavalry stationed in Northwestern England > after his father died. North west England is a silly place to put a garrison of heavy, or even light, cavalry. There was nothing overly desirable there and no major roads to the rest of the country. Places such as York, Lincoln and Colchester are on the East side of the pennines and connected by the great north road. > 2) The garrison was probably centered at Colchester. Chester > translates into "camp" and there are many chesters in western > England. Please name more than two. Although perhaps I should allow all of the ...caster and ...cester place names. My quibble is that these are Roman camps and should be of little relevance to Arthur fighting invasions from the East. > 3) The Heavy Cavalry (or Knight of the Round Table) were the > only ones of their kind in England. They were Sarmatians, > who came from the western shores of the Black Sea, where > modern day Romainia is. They have large horses, a full suit > of chainmail, helmet, breastplate, sheild and lance. The > best armed troops of the day. Why are the Knights of the Round Table definitely Sarmatians? Trade still existed and I can believe in an equivalence troop being formed but I need something more before I can accept the definite statement. > 4) The Sarmatians were stationed in England in the standard > practice of many Empires. Troops were stationed in areas > far removed from their homeland so they would not have to > fight their own kind. Please prove this statement. We are discussing the time frame of a period after the removal of the legions. > 5) Arther and his cavalry were attempting to maintain some > form of order in the years after the Romans had withdrawn. > This puts the time frame in the late 400's, early 500's. Given. > Britons were no longer Celts, but they weren't Saxons yet. Britons were not, are not and will never be Saxons. On the other hand I have no idea what a proper name for the inhabitants of England at that time should be. > Into this power vaccum the Saxons and Danes came, seizing > eastern England. Wait a moment. The Danes did not start to arrive for another 100 years or so. However there were problems with the Angles. There were possibly problems with the Irish too, particularly the tribes that the romans had called scotti. > Arthur fought them from Western England > using his "chesters". When he suffered a serious reverse, > he spent a long time hiding out in the marshes of southwestern > England, which is why is he is so well remembered there. I disagree. I think he is remembered there because the land that he defended in the west did not get overrun so soon after his death. Kent, Sussex and East Anglia fell or was given to the Angles. The Saxons pushed through these areas to the central counties. The North fell shortly thereafter to the danes. The only places left were Wales and Mercia and these are the places that remember Arthur. > 6)Conclusion: Because of his Roman education and his > excellent cavalry, Arthur could beat any of the roving > bands and independent nobles that stood in his way. Whether > he could stand up to the organized armies of the invaders > depended on how much support he got from the Britons. What organised armies? As I see it, his cavalry was a success in his lifetime and fell apart from a lack of leadership after his death. > - Christopher Salander > > (descended from the Crosbys of Lancastershire, England, ^^^^ I was born as raised in Crosby, Lancashire. The Crosbys must have left an awful long time ago if they think that the county around Lancaster is called Lancastershire. p.s. Can anyone translate 'Nigel made me' into Gaelic. I want to carve to onto a Celtic harp that I have just about finished building. -- -- {ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh Nigel The Mad Englishman or The Madly Maundering Mumbler in the Wildernesses Everything you have read here is a figment of your imagination. Noone else in the universe currently subscribes to these opinions. "Its the rope, you know. You can't get it, you know."
rlp@cbosgd.UUCP (Bob Platt) (07/25/85)
Arthur appears in the Kymric "The Book of Taliesin," published (recopied)
in the 15th century. The "author" Taliesin was a 6th century Welsh Bard
who in the 15th century was already a mythological character himself.
The poem (song) is reminiscent of later Grail legends. It is very abstruse,
leading scholars to abandon it in despair, or question its authenticity.
Briefly, it describes the rescue of one Gwair by a party of men led by
Arthur in his ship Prydwen. They find the "grail" in Caer Pedryvan, the
"four-cornered castle" in the land of Annwyn.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Spoils of Annwyn (by Taliesin)
Complete was the prison of Gwair in Caer Sidi.
Through the permission of Pwyll and Pryderi
No one before him went to it;
A heavy blue chain firmly held the youth,
And for the spoils of Annwyn gloomily he sings,
And to the doom shall he continue his lay.
Thrice the fullness of Prydwen we went into it,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Sidi.
Am I not a candidate for fame, to be heard in the song,
In Caer Pedryvan four times revolving!
It will be my first word from the cauldron when it expresses;
By the breath of nine damsels it is gently warmed.
Is it not the cauldron of the chief of Annwyn in its fashion?
With a ridge round its edge of pearls!
It will not boil the food of a coward not sworn,
A sword bright flashing to him will be brought,
And left in the hand of Llemynawg,
And before the portals of hell, the horns of light shall be burning.
And when we went with Arthur in his splendid labours,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Vediwid (or the enclosure
of the perfect ones).
Am I not a candidate for fame, to be heard in the song,
In the quadrangular enclosure, in the island of the strong door,
Where the twilight and the jet of night moved together.
Bright wine was the beverage of the host,
Three times te fullness of Prydwen, we went on sea,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Rigor (or the enclosure
of the Royal party).
I will not have merit, with the multitude in relating the hero's deeds,
Beyond Caer Wydr they beheld not the prowess of Arthur?
Three times twenty-hundred men stood on the wall,
It was difficult to converse with the sentinel.
Three times the fullness of Prydwen, we went with Arthur,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Colur (or the gloomy
enclosure).
I will not have merit from the multitude with trailing shields,
They know not on what day, or who caused it,
Nor what hour in the splendid day Cwy was born,
Nor who prevented him from going to the meanders of Devwy.
They know not the brindled ox, with his thick head-band,
and with seven score knobs in his collar.
And when we went with Arthur of mournful memory,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Vandwy (or the enclosure
resting on the height).
I will not have merit from men of drooping courage,
They know not what day the chief was caused,
Nor in what hour in the splendid day the owner was born;
What animal they keep of silver head.
When we went with Arthur of mournful contention,
Except seven, none returned from Caer Ochren (or the enclosure
of the shelving side).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The island referred to is purported by my source to be the Isle of 'Sena.'
It's not on any map I have.
I find this word 'caer' interesting. It seems to be a generic word for
'enclosure,' whether it is a ship (Caer Wydr, Arthur's vessel of glass),
castle, hill-fort, etc. Also, elements of the song vaguely reminded
me of one called "The Bells of Rhymney" by Judy Collins; after dusting the
record off, I was surprised to find that not only is it based on seven verses,
each ending in the name of a Welsh town, but one town is *Caerfilly* and
another *Cardiff*! It turns out that there are no fewer than 25 British towns
having the prefix 'Caer,' all (except one: Caer Caradoc) in Wales. There are
also many more towns, like Cardiff, with the variant prefix 'Car.' Does
anyone know what this word means to modern-day Welshmen? Or what it meant
in the past? Is it possibly related to the word 'cairn' (which also
appears in many place names, e.g. Carn Gwylim, Powys)?
Joe Knapp (cbosgd!nscs!jmk)
"the glee-wood touched
the harp's sweet note awoke; and now a song intoned,
both sooth and sad; now the great-hearted king
told well a wondrous tale."
Beowulfnrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) (07/30/85)
Mea Culpa, or as accurately translated 'Me a culprit'.
A few days ago I made a set of pronouncements which a look in my
Encyclopedia Britannica shows to be utter swill.
44 bc Ceasar came, saw, and left in disgust.
45 ad Three legions arrive and remain despite disust.
122 ad Hadrian has a wall built and named after him. It runs from
Carlisle to Newcastle on Tyne ( approximately )
145 ad Antonius has a go a conquering scotland currently the home
of the Picts. He has a wall built from the Solway Firth to
the Firth of Forth. This is a cheap wall, only 20 miles as
opposed to Hadrians 70 miles.
He also has a legion wandering off north of the wall.
180 ad The picts in all areas north of hadrians wall rise in
revolt. The legions retreat.
225 ad The work of revamping and repairing Hadrians wall is
started. No further messing about north of this wall.
340 ad Troops start to be recalled to Rome. Raids by Saxons and
Scotti are noticable and lead to a series of coastal forts
and watchtowers being built along the east coast.
360 ad Saxons are hired to defend against saxon raiders.
400 ad Last traces of rule from Rome are gone. Raids increase.
Celts pushed west to West Wales ( Now called Cornwall )
and North Wales ( Now called Wales ).
439 ad Saxon Kingdom of Kent founded.
449 ad Celts from West Wales raid and occupy Brittany
517 ad Mons Badonicus - Arthur's Last Battle. Peace for 44 years.
( the book notes that the battle was 517 minus 15 to 20
years )
Other Blunders.
Mercia is the Danish kingdom centered on Newcastle-on-Tyne
Wessex is the Saxon kingdom centered on Bristol, Bath or
possibly Oxford.
The kingdom of Kent became Sussex as it spread along the
south coast.
The Danes moved in earlier than I thought but not early
enough to figure in the Arthur legend.
Possible Truths.
The celtic name for fort, camp or castle is Caer or Car.
Chester, cester and caster are all saxon derivatives.
I do not believe that the danes went in for fortified
towns and so did not leave specific place name derivatives.
Note that 90+% of the roman names have been replaced,
e.g. Chester was Deva
Bath was Auae Sulis
York was Eboracum
Colchester was Camoludunum
London was Londinium ( was Londres or Logres?? )
If this discussion continues, I will look up Geoffrey of Monmouths
version of history and post that. Regardless of anything else it is
the earliest relevant document and{so obscure chukOnks of it have
been validated.
Happy Dreams Everyone
--
--
{ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh
Nigel The Mad Englishman or
The Madly Maundering Mumbler in the Wildernesses
Everything you have read here is a figment of your imagination.
Noone else in the universe currently subscribes to these opinions.
"Its the rope, you know. You can't get it, you know."dmm@calmasd.UUCP (David M. MacMillan) (08/01/85)
The following quotation is from the Old English translation
[attributed to King Alfred, but probably done by Mercian
translators under his influence] of the Venerable Bede's
[:-) The Venemous Bede's] Ecclesiastical History of the English
People. [Original langauge, Latin.] Alas, I do not speak
Old English, so treat my translation warily. Eth and Thorn are
represented as th, and ash (the ae digraph) as ae.
Waes in tha tid heora heretoga and latteow Ambrosius, haten
othre noman Aurelianus. Waes god mon and gemetfaest,
Romanisces cynnes mon.
There was in that time a captain and leader Ambrosius,
by another name called Aurelianus. He was a good man and
moderate, a man of the Roman race.
My Old English professor, the learned John Halverson of
U.C. Santa Cruz, claimed that this was the only surviving
reference to Arthur in Old English literature. The passage
goes on to cite his achievements at the battle of Mt. Badon
(Beadonescan dune), but my translation above is sufficiently
offensive to dissuade me from attempting the whole paragraph.
I don't have a copy of the entire Ecclesiastical History;
my source is page 240 of Moore, Knott, and Hulbert's
The Elements of Old English.
I hope Old English ("Anglo-Saxon") is permissible in
discussions of things Celtic.
David M. MacMillan
P.S. A curious topic might be the misspellings of Gaelic
names. Within the past few years, an entirely new variant
has arisen: MacMillian. For some reason, I find this
particularly irritating.jody@inuxd.UUCP (JoLinda Ross) (11/14/85)
I need help finding information on King Arthur. I am looking for any material that tries to prove or disprove his existance. Since this is for a paper due in a few weeks, I need the imformation as soon as possible. I read this network every day, so please post it to the net (my mail doesn't always get to me). Thank you for any help you can give. jody