jmg@sftig.UUCP (J.McGhee) (10/29/85)
In August of this year, Massachusetts State Representative Marie Howe traveled to northern Ireland on a fact-finding trip with Mrs. Marion McCarthy, an adminstrative assistant. On Monday, August 12 at 10:30 am, Representative Howe and Ms. McCarthy were traveling along the M1 highway from Armagh city to Belfast and were passing Long Kesh concentration camp, also known as "the Maze", which is a political prison. While passing the camp they took about 2 minutes of film with a Super-8 camera without stopping the car. About two miles farther down the road they were stopped by a mobile unit of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC). Four men armed with rifles surrounded their car. Another van pulled in front of their car with two uniformed RUC and two plain-clothes men. Another van pulled up behind their car and then another. Each van contained three or four RUC men, all carrying rifles. By now there were 12 to 15 RUC men surrounding their car with rifles aimed at the women. They were asked to show identification, which they did, using passports and drivers licenses. Representative Howe, who was driving, was asked why she had turned her lights on. She told the RUC that there had been some barriers along the road at construction sites where the road narrowed from four lanes to two and that she put her lights on for safety reasons. The RUC asked why they were taking "video tapes" of the camp. Mrs. McCarthy explained that they were using a home movie camera, not a video camera. The RUC accused her of lying and threatened her with arrest. Even after the camera was shown to the RUC the women were called liars and were subjected to a flood of verbal abuse. The two women asked if it was prohibited to photograph the prison, since they had seen no signs prohibiting it. The RUC stated that there were no signs and that it wasn't prohibited, but that it didn't matter; they could be searched and detained for 4 hours under the Prevention of Terrorism Act (PTA). The RUC said that they didn't need any charges or any reason to detain the women; they could do whatever they wanted and the American women had no rights. Representative Howe also presented here legislative identification for the State of Massachusetts. They expressed contempt for her legislative office saying "We don't care who you are. You're in the U.K. now and you have no rights here at all." The RUC confiscated their passports and threatened the women with arrest, detention, strip searches and other punishments. Representative Howe and Ms. McCarthy objected to confiscation of their passports and asked to call a solicitor/attorney. The RUC were very menacing and told them: "Whatever foolish rights you might have in the US, you don't have them here. You're in the U.K." They also stated in a harsh and degrading manner: "We don't give a damn about the Helsinki agreements or any agreements with the US. They don't matter here." At this point a senior officer came over and said, "Take them over to the Maze, strip search them and search the car". Of course, the women protested the detention and were met with a flood of insults and degrading treatment. They asked again to call a solicitor and the American consulate, and were told that they would be allowed to call when they arrived at the camp. The two women went under armed guard with the car and the vans to Long Kesh which also has a British Army camp on the grounds. After arriving at the camp the women were held in a huge hangar building and were constantly guarded by three British soldiers armed with rifles. Three other soldiers searched the car, taking it apart, inside and out. Representative Howe and Ms. McCarthy repeatedly reminded the RUC of the phone call, but were refused the right to call anyone. They were even taunted for being so naive as to believe that they would be allowed to call anyone. Every time they asked why they were being held, they were told that they didn't need a reason or charges and that they could do whatever they wanted. This was all accompanied by a continuing barrage of threats, intimidation and harrassment. They were reminded ominously that they were isolated and no one knew where they were. During their detention every item belonging to the women, luggage, handbags, etc. was spread out on tables and on the floor and searched meticulously. The women's personal items were passed around and were made the object of jokes and sarcastic comments. The women were separated and each was questioned by four or five interrogators. They were continuously questioned about their travel stops, who they knew, where they stayed throughout their travels in England, Ireland or Scotland. They were also interrogated about their political views on both European and American politics. When asked what political parties they belonged to, the women said "Democratic". This was ridiculed and they were told that U.S. Constitutional rights were "nonsense". Representative Howe showed her interrogators her identification as a representative of the State of Massachusetts, but they ignored it. The RUC also kept their passports and confiscated all photographs and undeveloped film in their possession. They were told that it was an offense against the Prevention of Terrorism Act (PTA) to refuse the films and photographs to the RUC and that the RUC would keep any "subversive" films that they found. When asked what they meant by "subversive", they said it might have a different meaning than what the women knew or what their superiors would say. The women were threatened with arrest and were told they could be charged with offenses under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, but the RUC would not be specific about charges. In full view of all the RUC and British Army soldiers, Representative Howe and Mrs. McCarthy were body-searched by an RUC woman. Finally, one RUC man told them that this was really a British Army search. After repeated reminders the RUC finally said at about 12:30 that the American Consulate had been called. Representative Howe later determined that the Consulate had not been called until 2:15 pm. At 2 pm Mrs. McCarthy asked to call her children who had been expecting her call at home in Massachusetts. She was refused this call also which caused a great deal of distress to her family at home. Representative Howe and Mrs. McCarthy were finally released at 4:10 pm which was 5 hours and 30 minutes after being stopped. When Repesentative Howe told the RUC that this was was well over the detention period they said was allowed by law; they were told that they could be held for any period of time desired. One RUC man stated that in any case his partner would collaborate on whatever time he said they were picked up. In an official account of their detention Representative Howe stated: "We were very disturbed about their continuous mockery and contempt for us as U.S. citizens....and the democratic system in the U.S. They mocked our laws and rights and freedoms. They told us about the Prevention of Terrorism Act and other forms of legislation used to oppress the Irish people and told us that there were no rights 'in the U.K.', that they had the laws on their side and 'can do whatever we care to do'." "While our detention was a horrible and frightening experience, it was brief as compared to what is imposed on the Irish people every day of their lives, living in the military police state that is northern Ireland. The Army and the RUC work hand in hand to operate this police state with repressive legislation enacted in the British Parliament." "The detention period under the PTA is only the first step in an unjust, discriminatory judicial system that has been condemned and criticized throughout the world by reputable legal, human and civil rights groups and organizations. This undemocratic, oppressive judicial system is marked with detention and interrogation without legal counsel under harsh and brutal conditions...wherein a person can be imprisoned with no charges brought against them for long periods of time - 2 and 3 years, before an appearance in court before Diplock (juryless) courts using massive show trials. Interrogation methods of the RUC, Ulster Defense Regiment, and British Army have been condemned by international human and civil rights groups." "Long term sentences are imposed on people with no evidence and based on tortured 'confessions'. Due process of the law with a concomitant system of justice does not exist in northern Ireland and this police state is governed by repressive laws enacted in the British Parliament to destroy the fabric of Irish culture, tradition and custom and to dehumanize the Irish nationalist people." These facts can be verified by writing to: Representative Marie E. Howe Commonwealth of Massachusetts State House Room 279 Boston, MA 02133 "These people know nothing of democracy." -- Margaret Thatcher
jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA (John Purbrick) (11/03/85)
> > In August of this year, Massachusetts State Representative Marie > Howe traveled to northern Ireland on, [tried to film a prison housing > terrorists, among others, was caught and treated in various humiliating > ways]. Ah, Marie Howe. If I tried to make films of a prison housing terrorists in a nation which has experienced a couple of thousand-plus deaths related to insurgency I'd expect difficulties. Yes, they mistreated her. Yes, she was begging for trouble. Maybe when the police and soldiers treated her with skepticism they had heard about the last time she was arrested, back home; on that occasion she tried to give the cops a false name. Ulster Protestants have made a lot of protests about "Loyalist prisoners" lately. Could Mr McGhee explain who these prisoners are? How do he and Marie Howe feel about them?
jmg@sftig.UUCP (J.McGhee) (11/06/85)
> Ah, Marie Howe. If I tried to make films of a prison housing terrorists in a > nation which has experienced a couple of thousand-plus deaths related to > insurgency I'd expect difficulties. Ah, John Purbrick. Good propaganda technique! Withhold just enough facts so that your audience gets the most erroneous and most damaging impression of your opposition. You must have studied technique at Whitehall in London. Yes, those nations like South Africa and the Philipines, Nicaragua under Samosa, Chile and El Salvador certainly do get up tight when you bring their dispicable acts out into the daylight where everyone can see. That's why South Africa recently started attacking news cameramen in their country; that's why Samosa's National Guard blew the brains out of an American reporter and why so many are "Missing" in Chile and El Salvador. That's why the reporters were trapped on board the plane at the Manila airport while Benigno Aquino was assassinated by the Philipine Army and Police. The world has come a long way since the time when a bill was introduced in the "mother of parliaments" in London calling for the **> CASTRATION <** of all Catholic priests, but we still have a long way to go. > Yes, they mistreated her. Yes, she was begging for trouble. Sounds like I've heard these lines so many times before, usually in cases of rape or wifebeating when the attacker tries to justify his insane acts. > Maybe when the police and soldiers treated her with > skepticism they had heard about the last time she was arrested, back home; Let's see, you must be referring to the time in 1976 when Marie Howe, along with many others, was arrested for an act of civil disobedience on a picket line protesting human rights violations in northern Ireland at the docking of a British ship in Boston Harbor. Of course, Marie Howe and all the other picketers were released about an hour later, immediately after the picket was over and all charges against them were dropped as usually happens in this kind of incident. There seems to be a long train of precedent for her act from the Boston Tea Party to the civil disobedience of Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King and most recently the arrests of some rather prominent Americans for acts of civil disobedience in front of the South African Embassy in Washington. Well, I guess all those people must be morally bankrupt individuals. Isn't that right, John? > on that occasion she tried to give the cops a false name. I don't know where you came up with that piece of nonsense, but that is totally and completely untrue. It is ludicrous to suggest that Marie Howe would not be recognized by any person in her own home district. In fact, I would say that she probably blew her cover when she appeared as one of the main speakers on that occasion. I can tell you that an American Police Chief who recently travelled to northern Ireland, speaking from a podium outside the UN in Dag Hammerskjold Plaza, denounced the Royal Ulster Constabulary as being a completely sectarian force of repression which did not deserve to be described by the word "police" because they could not measure of to the standards of any police force in America. > Ulster Protestants have made a lot of protests about "Loyalist prisoners" > lately. Could Mr McGhee explain who these prisoners are? How do he and > Marie Howe feel about them? Glad you mentioned that! Let me start by giving you a little recent history. In **> EVERY <** instance where loyalist prisoners have protested maltreatment or have protested against the kangaroo courts of northern Ireland, they have been **> SUPPORTED <** by the Nationalist/Republican prisoners and Sinn Fein who have experienced the same injustices from the same government, but on a much larger scale and much more frequently. At one time the British Army placed Loyalist and Republican prisoners in the same prison compounds because they thought the two groups would fight like cats and dogs. To their utter amazement the two groups got along very well together and supported each other in their protests for better conditions. The Loyalist and Republican prisoners formed a joint governing council of prisoners and created a flag with two hands clasped in brotherhood surrounded by a ring of barbed wire. When things got to that stage the British decided to separate the two groups in different compounds or else the Loyalist prisoners might come to the inevitable conclusion that they didn't need the British for anything. Andy Tyrie is the head of the Loyalist paramilitary assassination squad known as the Ulster Defense Association (UDA), which has never been banned or outlawed in spite of the fact that Andy Tyrie has openly stated in front of TV cameras that they assassinate Nationalists and that they receive information from the British Army and RUC on proposed assassination targets. Recently he stated: "Some people say that northern Ireland Catholics are second class citizens. This is untrue. Actually, they are third class citizens. Northern Ireland Protestants are the second class citzens." In the 1700's Protestants were not only participants in the Irish independence movement, they were its founders and principal leaders. These facts have been purged from the British histories of Ireland and a mythological doomsday scenario has been promoted by the British government whenever it refers to a United Ireland in order to promote a chicken-little "the sky is falling!" mentality among them. You ought to be more careful about what you say, John. Some people may begin to suspect you of being a "Fenian plant" for feeding me "just the right questions". J. M. McGhee
apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent) (11/08/85)
In article <619@sftig.UUCP> jmg@sftig.UUCP (J.McGhee) writes: >Ah, John Purbrick. Good propaganda technique! Withhold just enough facts >so that your audience gets the most erroneous and most damaging impression >of your opposition. You must have studied technique at Whitehall in London. Your article, to which J.P. was replying, described (inter alia) the Maze prison as a concentration camp. Was this propaganda? > The world has come a long way since the time when a bill was >introduced in the "mother of parliaments" in London calling for the >**> CASTRATION <** of all Catholic priests, but we still have a long way >to go. Yes, we have come a long way since this time, if it ever existed. Did it? Does it have any relevance at all to Ireland in 1985? > I can tell you that an American Police Chief who recently travelled >to northern Ireland, speaking from a podium outside the UN in Dag Hammerskjold >Plaza, denounced the Royal Ulster Constabulary as being a completely sectarian >force of repression which did not deserve to be described by the word >"police" because they could not measure of to the standards of any police >force in America. Which police chief? What does he or she know about Ireland? I don't want to suggest that all is well with the R.U.C. - in particular they are certainly overwhelmingly (not completely) sectarian (Protestant). Would you agree that one reason - not by any means the only one - for this is that the Irish Republican Army (military wing of Sinn Fein) make a special point of killing Catholics who join the R.U.C.? > In the 1700's Protestants were not only participants in the Irish >independence movement, they were its founders and principal leaders. These >facts have been purged from the British histories of Ireland and a mythological >doomsday scenario has been promoted by the British government whenever it >refers to a United Ireland in order to promote a chicken-little "the sky >is falling!" mentality among them. > You ought to be more careful about what you say, John. Some people >may begin to suspect you of being a "Fenian plant" for feeding me "just >the right questions". > > J. M. McGhee At the risk of falling under similar suspicion, let me ask you a few more. Firstly, can we agree on a few basic facts about Ireland: Northern Ireland - the part which is presently part of the United Kingdom - has a population which is sharply divided on religious lines. The majority ( roughly 60% ) are Protestant, the minority Catholic. Nearly all the Protestant community wants to remain part of the U.K., while most of the Catholic community would like the north to become part of a united Ireland, ruled by the parliamentin Dublin which presently governs the south. Sinn Fein recognises neither the British nor the Irish parliaments, and in particular aims to overthrow the Dublin parliament and establish a socialist state governing all Ireland. Sinn Fein has the support of a (sizeable) minority of the northern Catholics, and a (small) minority of the southern Catholics. Given this situation, what do you propose should happen to northern Ireland? Would you support attempts to have it governed from Dublin, against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants? If so, why? Or do you support Sinn Fein's solution? Again, why? Why do you dismiss as British propaganda the view that withdrawing British troops and British rule from N.I. would lead to civil war? (There is, as you ought to know, significant support in mainland Britain for precisely this course of action. How do you explain an article by a former southern Irish foreign minister (*) warning the British government that withdrawing troops could result in chaos engulfing the whole island?) (*) Conor Cruse O'Brien, writing in The Observer, circa August 1984.) There is some hope that the London and Dublin governments will soon agree on measures designed to reduce inter-communal tension in N.I. - such as a joint parliamentary commission to investigate minority grievances. Sinn Fein and the I.R.A. will denounce any such agreement as a sham organised by two bodies which have no role in Ireland. Which side will you be on?
up547413042@ucdavis.UUCP (0048) (11/16/85)
> Firstly, can we agree on a few basic facts about Ireland: > Northern Ireland - the part which is presently part of the United Kingdom - > has a population which is sharply divided on religious lines. The majority > ( roughly 60% ) are Protestant, the minority Catholic. Nearly all the Protestant > community wants to remain part of the U.K., while most of the Catholic community > would like the north to become part of a united Ireland, ruled by the parliamentin Dublin which presently governs the south. Acutally, the division is an economic one. The religious division is a more on the surface. Ever since the 1600's (some time in there), there has been a great deal of animosity of the British by the native Irish. This is because the British destroyed their legal system, their economy, supressed and practically killed every shed of Irish culture, and tried to force them to be Protestant. It was rotten timing too, since the Catholic Reformation was going on at the time, and was therefore not as progressive as it could have been. But the Catholic Church was the only instituion associated with Ireland that was big enough to form an effective underground against the British oppression.This is why the division seems religious. But when Britain took over Ireland (that is, after the more benevolent Anglo- Irish lords), they forced the population into poverty. They gave all the land to English landlords who extracted every ounce of wealth for himself, barely leaving anything for the Irish to survive on. The Irish literally went without shoes on their feet and with rags for clothes. They leived on meager supplies of food. Many starved. A Frenchman who had been visiting the US and saw the condition of the black slaves stopped by Ireland on his way back to France. He said that the Irish were even worse off than the slaves. That's pretty bad. I want to disclaim, however, the use of violence in achieving goals. I believe in a United Ireland, but I do not support the IRA. -- Chris.
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (11/19/85)
> But when Britain took over Ireland (that is, after the more > benevolent Anglo- Irish lords), they forced the population into poverty. > They gave all the land to English landlords who extracted every ounce of > wealth for himself, barely leaving anything for the Irish to survive on. > The Irish literally went without shoes on their feet and with rags for > clothes. They leived on meager supplies of food. Many starved. A Frenchman > who had been visiting the US and saw the condition > of the black slaves stopped by Ireland on his way back to France. He > said that the Irish were even worse off than the slaves. That's pretty > bad. Don't forget Cromwell. His sweep of terror, rape, pillage and burn-to-the-ground tactics through Ireland makes Sherman in Georgia look like a real piker. It's no wonder at all that the Irish hate the English (ie, the Protestants). -- jcpatilla
cromwell@pur-ee.UUCP (Robert L Cromwell) (11/23/85)
Yes, I for one think Sherman was a real weenie, for the way he
fell short on his terror, rape, pillage, and burn-to-the-ground
tactics on his march through Georgia.
Bob Cromwell
disclaimer: Well, it really wasn't *my* fault; you see, I
wasn't even around then, and I'm generally a nice guy and all....