brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (02/17/85)
(Some SPOILERs follow) Ok, let's talk some real Doctor Who. I am often surprised to see people voting for Logopolis as one of their favourite episodes. In my mind it was one of the ones I like least. (Unlike Keeper of Traken, which was great) It may just have been the loss of Tom Baker, my favourite doctor, but here are some other reasons: 1) The Doctor's character changed Suddenly the doctor is no longer his whimsical self, he's very serious and very fatalistic. He's melodramatic and this time he's not kidding. He knows the end is coming (which he should not, see later) and it clouds the episode. 2) The Companions In this episode he is accompanied for the first time by three of his worst ever companions, Nyssa, Tegan and the ever-hated Adric. Nyssa has been thrown in as an afterthought, unlike other companions who usually enter under more interesting circumstances. What's worse is that none of these companions *care* about the doctor. During the regeneration, they are confused and harried. In other regenerations, the doctor has had caring companions at his side. Even Peri, with the doctor for only one episode, showed more concern. 3) The regeneration. This was super strange. Why did they change the whole sequence? This watcher deal has not shown up in any other regeneration, nor the idea the doctor knew what was coming. "He was the doctor all along" - I'm glad they say this because it still doesn't clear up what's going on. There's nothing leading up to this at all. And if the watcher was the doctor, then how was it done? What about the first law of time? I know this was an "unusal regeneration", but this is a bit much. And then there is the injury. Regeneration is supposed to take place in massive cell damage. For example, from old age for Doctor #1, Forced by the time lords for #2, radiation poisoning for #3 and Spectrox poisoning for #5. But what's this for, a long fall??? I thought the whole idea was that regeneration did not deal with damaged organs, for example a gun wound as seen in the Deadly Assassin. But how sad to see the doctor, who has faced Daleks, Cybermen, the Master and the Black Guardian, "die" from a fall. And he isn't even pushed, he lets go in this strange fatalistic ending. (Here I go again. Fatalism is so contrary to the doctor's philosophy as a renegade time-lord. This doesn't wash.) [On the positive note, at least it is at the hand of an old foe like the Master. The doctor should never go down to a minor foe, I feel.] 4) Logopolis. This is really silly, even for a Doctor Who setting. A human computer maintaining the universe? And they plan to duplicate it with an earth radio telescope computer? And measuring a Police Box with a tape measure to fix the Tardis? 5) The end of Logopolis Talk about loose ends. Half the universe wiped out and not a mention of it anywhere? I think in this example, even the Time Lords would send somebody back to interfere. But no mention of this anywhere in later episodes except for one brief note from Nyssa a long time later? For this crime the Master would be hunted down by thousands of Time Lords with Tardis detectors and shot on sight. But they brush it all off. And there's more. So tell me folks, why do you LIKE this episode? Is it because you are Baker haters and you like this very unBakerlike episode? Or What? -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
rsk@stat-l (Wombat) (02/19/85)
Ok, Brad, you can punch holes in "Logopolis"; and the same goes for every other episode they've ever done...so there's no sense in picking on "Logopolis" for that. I liked it because it *was* melodramatic--a nice change-of-pace from the usual smart-assed behavior of Baker's doctor (who is my favorite, BTW.) I don't like Adric or Teegan much either; Nyssa is one of my favorites, though, and I thought she played very well in this episode. I think the somber mood which ended Baker's turn as the Doctor began in "The Keeper of Trachon"; I found it effective there, and in "Logopolis"... Folks' favorite episodes are largely a matter of taste, anyway--if I said that I really liked "Talons of Weng-Chiang" but was greatly annoyed by "Full Circle", I'm sure some folks would agree--and many would disagree. -- Rich Kulawiec @ Purdue Unix Wombat Group rsk@purdue-asc.arpa (decvax,ihnp4,uiucdcs)!pur-ee!rsk.uucp (decwrl,hplabs,ucbvax)!purdue!rsk.uucp May you live in interesting times. -- Ancient Chinese Curse
nyssa@abnji.UUCP (nyssa of traken) (02/20/85)
>(Some SPOILERs follow) > >Ok, let's talk some real Doctor Who. I am often surprised to see people >voting for Logopolis as one of their favourite episodes. In my mind it >was one of the ones I like least. (Unlike Keeper of Traken, which was great) I didn't vote for it, but I did like it. >It may just have been the loss of Tom Baker, my favourite doctor, but here >are some other reasons: > >1) The Doctor's character changed > >Suddenly the doctor is no longer his whimsical self, he's very serious and >very fatalistic. He's melodramatic and this time he's not kidding. >He knows the end is coming (which he should not, see later) and it clouds >the episode. He became fatalistic only after noticing the Watcher. He knew what the threat was and it was enough to frighten him. >2) The Companions > >In this episode he is accompanied for the first time by three of his worst >ever companions, Nyssa, Tegan and the ever-hated Adric. Nyssa has been >thrown in as an afterthought, unlike other companions who usually enter under >more interesting circumstances. What's worse is that none of these companions >*care* about the doctor. During the regeneration, they are confused and >harried. In other regenerations, the doctor has had caring companions at his >side. Even Peri, with the doctor for only one episode, showed more concern. The sight of Nyssa strangling Adric brings great joy to me. Seriously, In the Troughton-Pertwee regeneration the Doctor was not surrounded by caring companions. (I have seen both the "War Games" and "Spearhead from Space") Jamie and Zoe had been returned to their own times before the regeneration (not shown) took place. In Spearhead, the Doctor was in a hospital through the crisis. The Brig saw what he looked like and seemed not to care. >3) The regeneration. > >This was super strange. Why did they change the whole sequence? This watcher >deal has not shown up in any other regeneration, nor the idea the doctor knew >what was coming. "He was the doctor all along" - I'm glad they say this >because it still doesn't clear up what's going on. There's nothing leading >up to this at all. And if the watcher was the doctor, then how was it done? >What about the first law of time? I know this was an "unusal regeneration", >but this is a bit much. Consider the following hypothesis: The Time Lords recognized that the Doctor and the universe would be threatened and allowed a temporary duplication of a future incarnation. (Why not: Three Doctors, Five Doctors) This duplication is allowed to aide the Doctor, but only once allowed to meet him before the regeneration. The next regeneration was even more unusual in that it is the first unnatural regeneration not to be helped along by another Time Lord. >And then there is the injury. Regeneration is supposed to take place in >massive cell damage. For example, from old age for Doctor #1, Forced by the >time lords for #2, radiation poisoning for #3 and Spectrox poisoning for #5. >But what's this for, a long fall??? I thought the whole idea was that >regeneration did not deal with damaged organs, for example a gun wound as >seen in the Deadly Assassin. But how sad to see the doctor, who has faced >Daleks, Cybermen, the Master and the Black Guardian, "die" from a fall. >And he isn't even pushed, he lets go in this strange fatalistic ending. >(Here I go again. Fatalism is so contrary to the doctor's philosophy as >a renegade time-lord. This doesn't wash.) >[On the positive note, at least it is at the hand of an old foe like the >Master. The doctor should never go down to a minor foe, I feel.] Who is to say that his cells weren't damaged in the fall. (He was at least pretty shaken up!) Any form of death could be considered cell damage. Re: Deadly Assassin. I submit that that got it wrong, I haven't seen it for years, though. >4) Logopolis. > >This is really silly, even for a Doctor Who setting. A human computer >maintaining the universe? And they plan to duplicate it with an earth >radio telescope computer? And measuring a Police Box with a tape measure >to fix the Tardis? Agreed. Notice that in Twin Dilemma Peri takes block transfer computations for granted? Perhaps she saw "Logopolis" :-) >5) The end of Logopolis > >Talk about loose ends. Half the universe wiped out and not a mention of >it anywhere? I think in this example, even the Time Lords would send >somebody back to interfere. But no mention of this anywhere in later >episodes except for one brief note from Nyssa a long time later? >For this crime the Master would be hunted down by thousands of Time Lords >with Tardis detectors and shot on sight. But they brush it all off. See the above explaination of the Watcher. > >And there's more. So tell me folks, why do you LIKE this episode? > >Is it because you are Baker haters and you like this very unBakerlike >episode? Or What? I am not a Baker hater. I like Colin very much :-) >-- >Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 -- James C Armstrong, Jnr. { ihnp4 || allegra || mcnc || cbosgb } !abnji!jca "You said you came from Fulham." "Griffiths, when I look at you, I wonder why your ancestors bothered to climb out of the primordial slime."
jim@timeinc.UUCP (Jim Scardelis) (02/22/85)
> And then there is the injury. Regeneration is supposed to take place in > massive cell damage. For example, from old age for Doctor #1, Forced by the > time lords for #2, radiation poisoning for #3 and Spectrox poisoning for #5. > But what's this for, a long fall??? I thought the whole idea was that > regeneration did not deal with damaged organs, for example a gun wound as > seen in the Deadly Assassin. But how sad to see the doctor, who has faced > Daleks, Cybermen, the Master and the Black Guardian, "die" from a fall. > And he isn't even pushed, he lets go in this strange fatalistic ending. > (Here I go again. Fatalism is so contrary to the doctor's philosophy as > a renegade time-lord. This doesn't wash.) If regeneration only occurs in time of massive cell damage, then please explain Romana's regeneration....all of the references I can find to it (videotape, books, etc.) seem to point that she regenerated just because she felt like it. I get the feeling that Cardinal Borusa did that too... Jim Scardelis -- "The opinions expressed herein are those of my computer, and are not necessarily mine, or those of my employer." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UUCP: {vax135|ihnp4}!timeinc!jim AT&T: (201) 843-0022 (business) ARPA: 1891@NJIT-EIES.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA USNAIL: P.O. Box 244 Little Falls, NJ 07424-0244 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hobbit@sunybcs.UUCP (Thomas Pellitieri) (02/28/85)
In <345@abnji.UUCP> James C. Armstrong (>) responds to Brad Templeton (>>), saying: >>3) The regeneration. >> >>This was super strange. Why did they change the whole sequence? This watcher >>deal has not shown up in any other regeneration, nor the idea the doctor knew >>what was coming. "He was the doctor all along" - I m glad they say this >>because it still doesn't clear up what's going on. There's nothing leading >>up to this at all. And if the watcher was the doctor, then how was it done? >>What about the first law of time? I know this was an "unusal regeneration", >>but this is a bit much. > >Consider the following hypothesis: The Time Lords recognized that the >Doctor and the universe would be threatened and allowed a temporary duplication >of a future incarnation. (Why not: Three Doctors, Five Doctors) This >duplication is allowed to aide the Doctor, but only once allowed to meet him >before the regeneration. > >The next regeneration was even more unusual in that it is the first unnatural >regeneration not to be helped along by another Time Lord. > As to the Watcher, take a look at the regeneration of K'Anpo in "Planet of Spiders". It appears to me that Cho-Jee was K'Anpo's "Watcher". >>And then there is the injury. Regeneration is supposed to take place in >>massive cell damage. For example, from old age for Doctor #1, Forced by the >>time lords for #2, radiation poisoning for #3 and Spectrox poisoning for #5. >>But what's this for, a long fall??? ... > >Who is to say that his cells weren't damaged in the fall. (He was at least >pretty shaken up!) Any form of death could be considered cell damage. >Re: Deadly Assassin. I submit that that got it wrong, I haven't seen it for >years, though. Also, take a look at Romandvoratrelundar's (deep breath) regeneration. She CHOSE to regenerate! It seems to be the case that regeneration can be a voluntary thing (in which case it is sometimes called a rejuvination!) Apparently, a Time Lord can choose his/her new body if rejuvination takes place. The Second Doctor was given the option of rejuvination, and was shown several possible "new bodies". Since he was reluctant to choose one of them, he got "stuck" with Jon Pertwee's body! Also, I believe the Hartnell-Troughton transition was, in fact, a rejuvination. Complications occured because the First Doctor had waited so long to regenerate. (I'll check this against the tape my friend has--he says it's the best of the 5 so far!) Happy Times and Places, -The Parker Hobbit -- decvax!sunybcs!hobbit or seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit "I cross the void beyond the mind...to seek a truth they never find"