berman@ihuxm.UUCP (The Keyboard of Reason) (06/04/84)
Bob Brown writes: > >...... our Communist friends have quite a record: > > Lenin ? > > > Stalin 2-3 million Ukranians starved 1930's > Stalin 10 million ? purges and death lists > > Mao 30 to 50 million ? Nobody knows for sure. > > Pol Pot 2.5 million Cambodians > >Anybody know of some I missed ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah, I know of some you missed: Johnson Nixon 2 million Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans Reagan 40,000 Salvadoran victims of death squads that are part of government forces armed and trained by the Reagan regime. Flame on self-righteous ones! Andy Berman
fish@ihu1g.UUCP (Bob Fishell) (06/04/84)
>Bob Brown writes: > > > >...... our Communist friends have quite a record: > > > > Lenin ? > > > > > > Stalin 2-3 million Ukranians starved 1930's > > Stalin 10 million ? purges and death lists > > > > Mao 30 to 50 million ? Nobody knows for sure. > > > > Pol Pot 2.5 million Cambodians > > > >Anybody know of some I missed ? > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Yeah, I know of some you missed: > > Johnson > Nixon 2 million Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans > > Reagan 40,000 Salvadoran victims of death squads > that are part of government forces armed > and trained by the Reagan regime. > > > Flame on self-righteous ones! > > Andy Berman > Whenever I see commentary of this type, I'm at a loss to know what it is supposed to mean. Does it mean that: 1) They're no worse than us 2) We're OK 3) Therefore, They're OK or does it mean that: 1) We're no better than they are 2) They're no good 3) Therefore, we're no good ...? Comparing their behavior to ours does not diminish its (their) loathsomeness even one little bit. However, at least in this country, we have a right to make that comparison without being shipped off to a Gulag. -- Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihu1g!fish
clyde@ut-ngp.UUCP (06/05/84)
> From: berman@ihuxm.UUCP (The Keyboard of Reason) [SIC] <-(my comment) Organization: Comp. Center, Univ. of Texas at Austin Lines: 26 > > Yeah, I know of some you missed: > > Johnson > Nixon 2 million Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans > > Reagan 40,000 Salvadoran victims of death squads > that are part of government forces armed > and trained by the Reagan regime. This only underscores the original point. The numbers here add up to about 2,100,000. Stalin killed that many (or so) in the Ukraine (sp) ALONE. Face it, the WORST atrocities that can POSSIBLY be blamed on the U.S. (which seems to be a lot - at least by people whose vested interests are in such things) pale in comparasion to those perpetrated by the Communist regiemes of the 20th century. Oh yes, I do believe there have been several hundred thousand killed more or less directly by the Soviets in Afghanistan (I don't have the real numbers on the top of my head). -- Clyde W. Hoover @ Univ. of Texas Computation Center; Austin, Texas (Shouter-To-Dead-Parrots) "The ennui is overpowering" - Marvin clyde@ut-ngp.{UUCP,ARPA} clyde@ut-sally.{UUCP,ARPA} ihnp4!ut-ngp!clyde
rbg@cbosgd.UUCP (Richard Goldschmidt) (06/05/84)
To be really complete in considering national crimes, how can you ignore the genocide practiced against the American Indians?
larry@grkermit.UUCP (06/05/84)
"However, at least in this country, we have a right to make that comparison without being shipped off to a Gulag." I'm sure the people who were killed in vietnam and salvador will be very glad to hear that.
marcus@pyuxt.UUCP (M. G. Hand) (06/05/84)
Do you really believe that the numbers involved in attrocities have any bearing on the degree of dispicability of the crime - what difference does it make whether 1000 or 6 000 000 are killed? marcus hand (pyuxt!marcus)
hgp@houem.UUCP (Howard Page) (06/06/84)
>> >> Yeah, I know of some you missed: >> >> Johnson >> Nixon 2 million Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans >> >> Reagan 40,000 Salvadoran victims of death squads >> that are part of government forces armed >> and trained by the Reagan regime. >This only underscores the original point. The numbers here add up to about >2,100,000. Stalin killed that many (or so) in the Ukraine (sp) ALONE. > >Face it, the WORST atrocities that can POSSIBLY be blamed on the U.S. >(which seems to be a lot - at least by people whose vested interests are >in such things) pale in comparasion to those perpetrated by the >Communist regiemes of the 20th century. >Oh yes, I do believe there have been several hundred thousand killed >more or less directly by the Soviets in Afghanistan (I don't have the >real numbers on the top of my head). It's not that I don't disagree with the numbers, but is a murderer who kills one person simply half as bad as a murderer who kils two ? Answer only with a simple YES or NO! :-) H.G. Page ..!ihnp4!houem!hgp
geb@cadre.UUCP (06/06/84)
> Whenever I see commentary of this type, I'm at a loss to know what it > is supposed to mean. Does it mean that: > > 1) They're no worse than us > 2) We're OK > 3) Therefore, They're OK > > or does it mean that: > > 1) We're no better than they are > 2) They're no good > 3) Therefore, we're no good > > ...? > > Comparing their behavior to ours does not diminish its (their) > loathsomeness even one little bit. However, at least in this > country, we have a right to make that comparison without being > shipped off to a Gulag. That's not the point. One expects dictatorships to kill lots of people; that's the only way they can maintain their power. What is sad is that we have blood on our hands too. I am no pacifist; I believe in self-defense, but not in policing the world and backing bloody dictators just because they oppose our most powerful adversary. Most important, in our society, stirring up people about the crimes of the leaders has a chance of effecting some change, while in a dictatorship, only the ruling clique can make changes, and they are not going to be much chastened by our recounting their crimes. G. Banks vax135!cadre!geb
david@rand-unix.UUCP (David Shlapak) (06/06/84)
--- >Bob Brown writes: > > > >...... our Communist friends have quite a record: > > > > Lenin ? > > > > > > Stalin 2-3 million Ukranians starved 1930's > > Stalin 10 million ? purges and death lists > > > > Mao 30 to 50 million ? Nobody knows for sure. > > > > Pol Pot 2.5 million Cambodians > > > >Anybody know of some I missed ? > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Yeah, I know of some you missed: > > Johnson > Nixon 2 million Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans > > Reagan 40,000 Salvadoran victims of death squads > that are part of government forces armed > and trained by the Reagan regime. > > > Flame on self-righteous ones! > > Andy Berman > Gee, I don't know, I've only read about it, but it seems to me that the Communists had a lot to do with all those poor Vietnamese who died....but I guess that's just Fascist propaganda put out by the Reagan "regime," huh? As for the "40,000" killed by death squads in El Salvador, where is that figure from, "The Nation?" I like to think I'm reasonably current on these things, and I've never seen a figure CLOSE to that magnitude before...I'm NOT saying Andy Berman's wrong, just trying to get a source to consider... Uh, speaking of hypocrisy, Andy.... --- das
grw@fortune.UUCP (Glenn Wichman) (06/06/84)
bip.
Well, this is old news, and it is silly to blame "this country"
(as it exists now) for things that happened > 100 years ago, on the
other hand, "this country" takes a lot of credit for things it did
then, too.
I'm not sure what this comes out to in raw numbers, but consider
that Hitler (not a communist) destroyed about 40% (?) of the Jewish
population in his attempted genocide. Mao killed only a small
percentage of his population. The gov't. of the USofA was responsible
for the destruction of 99% of the native population of this land.
The president most responsible for this action is still an
honored hero in American culture, and enjoys center stage on our
$20 bill. At least in modern Russia Stalin has become a non-entity
(amazing how they do that), and in modern Germany Hitler is almost
unanimously rejected.
-Glennscw@cepu.UUCP (06/08/84)
>H.G. Page(..!ihnp4!houem!hgp) >It's not that I don't disagree with the numbers, but is a murderer who >kills one person simply half as bad as a murderer who kils two ? >Answer only with a simple YES or NO! :-) YES (I'll bicker with the ratio but a mass murder is worse that a single murder) -- Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology) uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb, sdcsvax!bmcg}!cepu!scw ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 06'37" W 118 25'43"
dire@dartvax.UUCP (06/08/84)
The figure of 40,000 killed means that many civilians killed in the
last three years of civil war, most of these deaths ( > 95%) are
atributed to government forces and paramilirary forces of the
right. These include the National Gaurd and the Treasury police.
The actual numbers come from many sources, a few are groups like
Anmesty International and America's Watch along with many organizations
affiliated with the Catholic Church.
--
John Macario
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!dire
CSNET: dire@dartmouth
ARPA: dire%dartmouth@csnet-relay
US MAIL: 10 TERRACE VIEW
Lebanon, NH 03766
"...it's even worse than it appears but it's all right..." crm@rti.UUCP (06/09/84)
What's more, the score accoring to these notes is about 44.5 million to 2+ million. Does that mean we're ~ 1/22nd as bad? How did you miss 50,000 per year in traffic accidents, killed because our politicians refuse to outlaw automobiles?
lab@qubix.UUCP (06/09/84)
Lest we forget:
Alcohol: 25,000 PER YEAR just on the highways alone (and who can
count all the shootings (drunkenness contributes to
"accidents"), stabbings, etc., resulting from
intoxication (or maybe intoxication started the argument
that caused it ...)?)
Abortions: 1,500,000 PER YEAR since 1973. The slaughter of the
innocents continues...
--
The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford
{decvax,ihnp4,allegra,ucbvax}!{decwrl,sun}!qubix!lab
decwrl!qubix!lab@Berkeley.ARPAsharp@kpnoa.UUCP (06/10/84)
Everyone go out and read the books by Lewis Fry Richardson called
Statistics of Deadly Quarrels (edited by Q.Wright & C.C.Lienau) and Arms and
Insecurity; a Mathematical Study of the Causes and Origins of War (edited
by N.Rashevsky & E.Trucco), both published by Boxwood Press, Pittsburgh.
There's also a follow-up book called Deadly Quarrels, by David Wilkinson,
University of California Press. Therein you will find all the numbers you
want about deaths, together with who fought whom and why. Then perhaps this
`discussion' will be better informed.
--
Nigel Sharp National Optical Astronomy Observatories
Tucson, Arizona (602) 325-9273
UUCP: {akgua,allegra,arizona,decvax,hao,ihnp4,lbl-csam,seismo}!noao!sharp
ARPA: noao!sharp@lbl-csam.arparcc@imsvax.UUCP (06/11/84)
>The worst part is that there is no one out there listening who can say >that these people would not do that. Kill a man for his religion. The >attitude is so prevelent in the world that you don't even blink an eye >and disclaim the probability. Yet each of these religions teaches love >and peace. I started the entire controversy with a statement about >religions and then added that religious fanatics are just more dangerous >because they have more followers. I have not seen anything on the net >to make me change my mind. > From the (death weary) Soapbox of > Tom Condon {...!uw-beaver!teltone!teldata!tac} > > THE PEACE YOU WILL FIND IN YOUR SOUL > IS THE PEACE YOU HAVE GIVEN TO OTHERS Agreed. Though religions may advocate tolerance, in practice, many develop the attitude that someone who is not a believer is somehow inferior and not "human", thus killing them isn't such a big deal. This also spills over into attitudes about culture and the superiority of one culture over the other. These attitudes aren't the sole property of Judeao-Christian (sp?) religions either, although they can provide many spectacular examples. -- The preceding message was brought to you by -- Ray Chen umcp-cs!eneevax!imsvax!rcc (NEW ADDRESS)
grw@fortune.UUCP (Glenn Wichman) (06/12/84)
bip.
Just one disagreement with Tom?s statement that Hitler was
persecuting Jews because of their religion, not their race: wrong-o.
Jews were persecuted on both counts. It was easier to find Jews
who were actively practicing Judaism, but there were a LOT of Jewish
Christians, agnostics, etc. killed in WWII simply because of their
ancestry (There are at least some mentioned in "The Hiding Place", if
you want a source). Furthermore, Hitler's stated reasons for his
dealings with the Jewish people had nothing to do with their beliefs.
Also, to defend my statement about "The president most responsible
for the Indian genocide..." being Jackson -- I misstated that. It
should have been "the president responsible for the most deaths" --
and not in the Indian Wars, but the "Trail of Tears".
I know that the original discussion was on relgion/war, but
it seems to have migrated to a discussion of "Is the USA morally
superior to other countries". My opinion on that is that I don't
believe 'moral' makes much sense applied to countries, at least
not applied evenly throughout their history. Certain policies of
the government of country X could be moral or immoral, but
"The USA" is too ephemeral a beast to pin morals on. The policies
of the United States have been, I believe, more immoral than moral,
but also no worse than most countries.
-Glennpiet@mcvax.UUCP (Piet Beertema) (06/15/84)
<...>
You forgot to mention Pinochet.
--
Piet Beertema, CWI, Amsterdam
...{decvax,philabs}!mcvax!piet