plw@drutx.UUCP (08/15/84)
Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site houxe.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 (Denver Mods 4/2/84) 6/24/83; site drutx.UUCP Message-ID: <900@drutx.UUCP> Date: Wed, 15-Aug-84 11:21:15 EDT on, Rebuttal, and Thanks (discussing!) <376@tellab1.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver Lines: 29 [] OK Rich, lets have a what-if to you. You have a daughter that is 10 years old and in the fifth grade. First to Fourth grade she carried a average to a little below average grades. She has never really cared for school. You and the family are in a new house and new school. She is making new friends, some you don't really care for (but give her a chance). First quarter conference comes up and teacher says "Your daughter is causing problems in the class room." During the second quarter, the principal is calling, "Your daughter has been in a fist fight." At home you notice a difference in her behavior. And her grades have dropped to D's and F's. As a parent (most parents anyway) you try to explain that school is important for your INDEPENDENT adult life. Jobs don't come easy with below average grades. You must learn the basics of Math, so the upper grade math classes are not as hard. You have asked her why she has changed so much, and all you get is a "I haven't changed!" She actually doesn't see it. Honestly Rich, I am asking... As a parent to this girl, what would YOU have done? I am not asking for advice. My husband and I handled it with great results. Patty Kerr drutx!plw AT&T ISL
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (08/16/84)
Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site dcdwest.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxn.UUCP Message-ID: <988@pyuxn.UUCP> Date: Thu, 16-Aug-84 15:10:54 PDT <900@drutx.UUCP> Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J. Lines: 71 > OK Rich, lets have a what-if to you. You have a daughter that is 10 > years old and in the fifth grade. First to Fourth grade she carried > a average to a little below average grades. She has never really > cared for school. > You and the family are in a new house and new school. She is making > new friends, some you don't really care for (but give her a chance). > First quarter conference comes up and teacher says "Your daughter > is causing problems in the class room." During the second quarter, > the principal is calling, "Your daughter has been in a fist fight." > At home you notice a difference in her behavior. And her grades > have dropped to D's and F's. > You have asked her why she has changed so much, and all you get > is a "I haven't changed!" She actually doesn't see it. > As a parent to this girl, what would YOU have done? I am not asking for > advice. My husband and I handled it with great results. > Patty Kerr I know more kids like this than I care to count (mostly playmates of my ex-SO's son). In every case, their behavior problems were rooted in a negligent home upbringing, where parents were either more concerned with "making their kids behave" (apparently so it wouldn't cause THEM problems) than with *raising* them, or not concerned at all. If I sound like I'm coming down hard on parents, well, that's tough. Really. Sure, everybody makes mistakes; there's very little we can do about that; they're never going to "go away". But even a mistake like "Oh, the code I just wrote just bombed completely and 4000 people will be without their data for a week" or "Oh, I just drove my car into that other car/building/etc. and caused thousands of dollars in damage" is DWARFED by a mistake like "Oh, I just f**ked up this child's life by not doing my job as a parent". The big problems with the latter mistake are: 1) it can take place over the long term, 2) its effects may not be noticed in the immediate short term, and 3) you may not even know you're doing it. You ask what I would have done. I could say "I probably would have raised her better so that she would be able to think for herself and know what's she doing", but I won't. I'll assume that you are among those parents who do make an effort and do care, though statistically I may not have reason to do so. The formative years in a child's life are crucial in determining later personality, because kids literally suck in everything they see around them, and sometimes incorporate it into their individuality. Reinforcing positive behaviors (like inquisitiveness, socialization, proper caution) and striking the right balance between them during this time is crucial to the development of the child. Once behaviors like that are cast, it is very difficult to undo them. Sometimes only psychological counseling works (for parent and child if necessary), especially if the child has become so alienated from his/her parents that their influence has been completely eroded. Hopefully if things haven't gone that far, the parents will still mean enough to the child that they will have some effect on his/her behavior. If you've set the stage so that you can talk rationally to your child (children are no less rational than adults), then you have laid the groundwork. If you teach a child to appreciate learning, there's no way that child is going to dislike school; the child will WANT to learn. If you teach a child the reasons for not behaving in anti-social fashion, they won't do so; the child will understand the consequences of such actions. If you've let the child know the ground rules regarding proper behavior, infractions, and fair punishment, rarely will you witness those rules being broken, and even more rarely will those rare infractions be malicious. But it's got to start early, or it may never work at all. Sad but true. You ask what I'd have done. I'd have been sure I'd laid that groundwork. If I hadn't, I'd be in trouble, and I might have to employ the last resorts I've described. As long as we have human beings as parents, parents will make mistakes. The idea is to be conscious of what you're doing as a parent in an effort to minimize those mistakes, especially since both the mistakes and their effects may be so long term as to be unnoticeable. (By the way, Patty, since you did achieve great results, please share your methods with us. Isn't that what this newsgroup is supposed to be for?) -- "If we took the bones out, it wouldn't be crunchy!" Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
stevev@tekchips.UUCP (Steve Vegdahl) (08/21/84)
Rich Rosen: > If you've set the stage > so that you can talk rationally to your child (children are no less rational > than adults), then you have laid the groundwork. If you teach a child to > appreciate learning, there's no way that child is going to dislike school; > the child will WANT to learn. If you teach a child the reasons for not > behaving in anti-social fashion, they won't do so; the child will understand > the consequences of such actions. If you've let the child know the ground > rules regarding proper behavior, infractions, and fair punishment, rarely > will you witness those rules being broken, and even more rarely will those > rare infractions be malicious. But it's got to start early, or it may never > work at all. Sad but true. You ask what I'd have done. I'd have been sure > I'd laid that groundwork. The above statements bear a striking resemblance to those of the proverbial professor of child psychology who had six theories and no kids... and then became a parent and ended up with six kids and no theories! I believe that this question has been asked to you before Rich, but I haven't seen the response: HOW MANY KIDS DO YOU HAVE? WHAT ARE THEIR AGES? Given my experience, I would have to say that raising (toddlers, anyway) is significantly more challenging than that of maintaining a solid romantic relationship. Partners in such a relationship have had such the following advantages over a parent/child relationship (in theory): 1. Both parties are responsible, sensitive adults, who are able to supress ones owns needs and desires when necessary to meet those of the other. In a parent/child relationship, it is sometimes the case that the parent gives, gives, gives, while the child takes, takes, takes. 2. Both parties have chosen the other. Except in cases such as the adoption of older children, you're stuck with who comes. 3. Both parties can articulate their feelings in plain English (or other language). With kids, this is certainly not true for the year, and is only partially true for most of the next two years. 4. There is a socially acceptable escape, namely divorce. It is much less socially acceptable for parents to walk out on their kids. If, as Rich implies, kid-raising is so simple, I would contend that marriage (or maintaining an analagous relationship) must be trivially easy. If that's the case, why do some large percentage marriages in this country (35%?) end in divorce or separation. Could someone out their give some simple rules for romantic relationships (as Rich has done for kid-raising) that everyone can follow, and thereby greatly reduce divorce in this country. Making the rules is not difficult. Living by them is virtually impossible. Steve Vegdahl Computer Research Lab. Tektronix, Inc. Beaverton, OR 97005 (By the way, my wife an I are coming up on our 6th anniversary next week. We have two boys--one almost three, the other 5 weeks. I am deeply in love with my wife, and think that marriage and parenting is wonderful.)
plw@drutx.UUCP (KerrPL) (08/24/84)
[] Rich, >(By the way, Patty, since you did >achieve great results, please share your methods with us. Isn't that what >this newsgroup is supposed to be for?) I never did plan not to tell anyone how we handled this. In fact I have replied to others who did ask. >I know more kids like this than I care to count (mostly playmates of my >ex-SO's son). In every case, their behavior problems were rooted in a >negligent home upbringing, where parents were either more concerned with >"making their kids behave" (apparently so it wouldn't cause THEM problems) >than with *raising* them, or not concerned at all. I hope your "every case" applied to your step-son's friends, and not all children who acts up once in a while. If it is a case of "All," then it is an assumption that shouldn't be made. Maybe I ought to have laid some background. I was divorced when Heather was 4, she is now 12. Her father left and never returned after the divorce. She had more time from me then some employed (or even unemployed) parents give. Leader in the girl scouts for three years. Any one who has been a leader knows what it is like to try to get volunteers for a project. Many times it meant taking the girls by myself. When I talked about quitting, once, Heather asked me to stay. We both enjoyed it enough that my quitting didn't happen. In time I had to so I could attend night classes, that was after three years. Taking vacation day's for her school field days. Play cards in the evening. We both enjoy going up to the mountains for the week-end. Rich, DO NOT call a parent neglective, when that parent knows what it is like to be abused. Heather has often made comments of "I'm glad you are my mother and not so and so. They [hit, scream, never home, say 'No, because I say so']" Take your pick out of any of them. I am just putting you in the right frame of mind on our home life. Heather's problems came with every thing being new. New house, new school, and Mom is engaged to be married. Heather is allowed to elect her events. One of her friends did turn out to be a mistake. Heather even admitted to me she was wrong to chose this girl. She is allowed to make her mistakes, and is allowed to learn through experience. I never been one to say "Listen to me. I am wiser. Do it because I say so." Kids never learn by just listening. They have to figure it out themselves. Anyway, Heather didn't want to go to school, she "hated her teacher." She was showing no respect for anyone or anything. Getting into fist fights. Winning some and thinking she was being cool. At first I asked why she feels she has to have this violent behavior? Answers were "I was mad. She started it. All the kids fight at school" I warned her if she must fight, it was not allowed on school grounds. I told her that I felt fighting and hitting is a waste of time, that it belittles her. But if she insists there will be a day she will meet a real challenge. Her challenge turned out to be her friend I mentioned earlier. As all big mouths get, there is a day they have to back up the big mouth. Heather didn't know how to handle it. She was afraid to fight this time. Now she was getting into people who knew how to fight. Being called chicken by the school because she couldn't back her big mouth. I explained that you can not walk away from your own actions. You have to face it one way or another. She chose to protect her pride and name and face this girl. With one request of me. To be there for her. Rich, it was her choice. Either way she had to go back to school without the name calling. Heather fought, got a good black eye from it and sore rib (that was when Heather gave up. A knee to the belly was enough for her.) Heather announced to the group that was around them, that it was over, she lost the fight but gained her self respect again. No one can call her chicken. Rough way to learn, but it was her lesson. I was there to back her up on her request. Later she had a hug for me for being there. That she did chose some wrong friends. That fighting and violence solves nothing. I have told her that for years. She knows how I feel on violence. School was also a problem at this time. She didn't care. At first it was all the "Why's", Don't like school, etc. Come to find out she didn't like her teacher. I told her that it was only this one year and he would be out of her life. That she ought to try for her grades out of her own self-respect. I do make mistakes, (Will get into more facts later) but I didn't realize that this teacher brought down her self-esteem. She just flat didn't care. If Heather would get an F, he would announce it to the class; If she got a C or better nothing was said. Her attitude was "He doesn't care so why should I?" The second quarter, yes Rich, I did bring in a school counselor. (I am NOT perfect and I couldn't figure out what to do. To think that anyone is perfect with ALL answers is a fool.) This teacher was a jerk. Heather was not the only student having problems with him. When I caught him in lies, argued with him that kids do have RIGHTS, Yes..Rich, rights, he informed me that kids don't have these rights and is not an adults equal. The meeting ended with that. I felt that was one of the core problems and that Heather ought to be pulled from his class. (Found out later that 2 other parents pulled their kids out after Heather) Heather was given the credit that the teacher was the major part of the problem, and now she would have to prove herself to the new teacher. (He was informed by the old teacher to watch out for Heather. She is a trouble maker) By the end of the year her grades, self-esteem, and action improved greatly. Her new teacher had no problems with her. She actually enjoyed school again. As far as the engagement went. She tried with all the excuses of "Mom, it has always been just me and you." Fine is all I said. Thought for awhile and then told her that at age 18 she will have to stay with me. Never move out. Never get married. Her response was "That is no FAIR"--My response "Exactly, how can you ask it of me when I have no right to ask it of you?" Heather was afraid I would be taken away from her. She had problems trying to allow another "Dad" in her life. He will take off again. She loved him as a person, but as long as the person would stay out of the home life, than all will be fine. Love and patience took care of this. She needed time to realize that "this person" can add and not take away from her life. We had all the talks about "Do I have to call him Dad? No, Heather that is your choice. Will I have to be adopted? No, Heather, that is your choice. He will be a step parent though. To be respected as a parent." We have been married two months now. She had called us "My Mom and Dad" when referring to us as a couple, and "Dad" when just talking about him alone. She is decided on adoption now. >You ask what I would have done. I could say "I probably would have raised her >better so that she would be able to think for herself and know what's she >doing", but I won't. I'll assume that you are among those parents who do >make an effort and do care, though statistically I may not have reason to do >so. The formative years in a child's life are crucial in determining later >personality, because kids literally suck in everything they see around them, >and sometimes incorporate it into their individuality. Reinforcing positive >behaviors (like inquisitiveness, socialization, proper caution) and striking >the right balance between them during this time is crucial to the development >of the child. Once behaviors like that are cast, it is very difficult to >undo them. >If you've set the stage >so that you can talk rationally to your child (children are no less rational >than adults), then you have laid the groundwork. In agreement!!! Heather received hugs, kisses, and "Good Girl" as a baby and toddler. She has been showed all the these. Two points to your "Reinforcing positive behaviors" 1. When they are doing something that a parent doesn't approve of, let them know it is their actions you are disapproving on. The child is not BAD. You (parent), as a person won't tolerate their actions. Just as a child has a right to say they won't tolerate beatings and other abusive actions. 2. Let that kid know that no parent is perfect. Parents are human and makes mistakes. When the parent has mistakingly wronged, apologize to the child. >If you teach a child to >appreciate learning, there's no way that child is going to dislike school; >the child will WANT to learn. There is no way that child is going to DISLIKE school? Good luck, Rich, on your own child. Easier said than done sometimes. >If you teach a child the reasons for not >behaving in anti-social fashion, they won't do so; the child will understand >the consequences of such actions. Sometimes they have to learn on their own experiences. Heather has learned in early years not to scream out in public places, to respect a person's feelings and belongings, all that I think that any good parent would teach. She had to learn the fighting by herself I guess. I, as her parent, tried to explain fighting to her. She had to learn that one by herself. To grow to be her own independent person on fighting. She has learned. She knows the saying "It takes a better person to walk away from a fight." As far as it goes with the teacher problem, she had to find out in life that there are jerks out there. People who place themselves higher than they can ever place any one else. >If you've let the child know the ground >rules regarding proper behavior, infractions, and fair punishment, rarely >will you witness those rules being broken, and even more rarely will those >rare infractions be malicious. Root word in the paragraph is RARELY. I feel that Heather and I have achieved this. She only had the actions that I described for about 18 weeks. Not bad for her being 12, or at 11 then. >You ask what I'd have done. I'd have been sure >I'd laid that groundwork. If I hadn't, I'd be in trouble, and I might have to >employ the last resorts I've described. Rich, so it sounds like I have laid the groundwork. I have not neglected my child at all. She has always had what is a parents responsi- bility to give their children. That is food, shelter, clothes, love, under- standing, patience, and a way to form her own self. You are talking to a person who feels a child needs all these things. Then to give more depending of what they need at the time. She does have the makings of being her own adult. She is a wise person, but fell this one time. Rich has her out as being a hoodlum from a neglectful parent. Some how this sounds like her old teacher, and was later proven wrong by Heather, the school counselor, the principal, and me. We all had FAITH in her. Of all that I mentioned earlier, a person can give another faith and support. Not to attack and say "I am wiser. I know" Patty Kerr drutx!plw