marty@hpfclq.UUCP (marty) (09/10/84)
. There are some other questions to consider. Like what are the Life Insurance and inheritance implications of not being married and who are the true legal guardians of the children. If the mother is the only legal parent then you could have some problems. What if the mother dies, can the father keep the children if relatives are trying to get custody of them. What if the child is injured and needs a medical release, can both parents do that? I'm sure some of this depends upon your local laws but it's worth checking out. I don't know about Canada but in the U.S. you end up paying more in taxes if you are married (several thousand dollars a year!). I'm sure that the IRS would claim marriage by the common law rule if it could gain enough in back taxes. Marty Osecky (hpfcla!marty)
paulb@hcrvax.UUCP (Paul Bonneau) (09/11/84)
[Insert most hated insect here]
Hello. I have only recently begun to read this newsgroup (since I
have only been recently begun to think about children) and therefore
do not know if the following topic has already been the subject of
discussion.
My girlfriend (boy I hate that word!) and I both agree on our
dissatisfaction with the concept of legal and/or religious marriage.
Neither of us are religious and for purposes of separation, a couple
is considered to be common-law wed after living together for some
period of time (I don't know how long).
However, we are both very much in love, and at some point in the
relatively near future, want to have children. I have been told by
people that this is an irresponsible attitude - that children need
to identify with a mommy and daddy who are husband and wife.
I disagree with that because I believe that the concept of husband
and wife does not have to be legal or religious. I can consider
myself to be the "husband" of my "wife" from an emotional standpoint
alone - which seems to me to be all that (young) children understand
about their parent's marriage anyway.
Other problems are:
1) Whose last name is given to the children,
2) Will the children be the subjects of teasing at school
because their parents have different last names,
3) Will the children be confused why their parents are
not married when they are old enough to comprehend the
difference between their parents and others (assuming
marriage is still the norm).
If you can think of any other problems or merits inherent in this
type of relationship, I would be interested to see and discuss
them with you.
--
Time to get back to net.apathy... Paul R. Bonneau
{decvax|watmath|utzoo}!hcr!hcrvax!paulbsaquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (09/11/84)
From Paul Bonneau >However, we are both very much in love, and at some point in the >relatively near future, want to have children. I have been told by >people that this is an irresponsible attitude - that children need >to identify with a mommy and daddy who are husband and wife. > >I disagree with that because I believe that the concept of husband >and wife does not have to be legal or religious. I can consider >myself to be the "husband" of my "wife" from an emotional standpoint >alone - which seems to me to be all that (young) children understand >about their parent's marriage anyway. > >Other problems are: > 1) Whose last name is given to the children, > 2) Will the children be the subjects of teasing at school > because their parents have different last names, > 3) Will the children be confused why their parents are > not married when they are old enough to comprehend the > difference between their parents and others (assuming > marriage is still the norm). These are interesting questions. My personal feeling are that having children together involves much more of a commitment than getting married does, and that in divorces or breakups the hardest thing to deal with would be how not to hurt the children in the process, so I think that people who do not get married because they want to make an eventual breakup easier, but have children anyway, are fooling themselves. However, the reasons you mentioned for not wanting to get married are not the ones I just mentioned, so my preceding comments probably do not apply to your case. To answer your questions in order: 1/ the answer depends on the province you are living in. I believe that in Ontario the child will automatically get the name of the father, if the father recognises that child. I don't know what happens if the father doesn't. If you care about which name your child gets, you should check the laws of the province on that matter before having a child. (Ontario seems to have rather non-flexible laws when it comes to naming children. I recall hearing 2 years ago about a woman who was married, had a child with another man, and as a result was abandonned by both her husband and the other man, and was trying unsuccessfully to give the child her name; even though she had been the only caretaker of the child since birth, the only choices she had were either of the 2 men's names or either one of those 2 names hyphenated with hers. I never heard the outcome of the trial) 2/ the children will not be teased on the basis you mentioned more than children of married people who have different names, and depending on where you live this will be more or less common. In Quebec, where the default now is for a woman to keep her maiden name after she gets married, children with parents with different names will soon be, if not a majority, a very sizeable minority. I think that there is a chance that they might be teased because their parents are not married, if marriage is still the norm. However my impression is that the marrital situation of parents is less and less used as a reason for teasing. When I grew up, it already wasn't, as there were enough people around with divorced or widowed parents, and now most family situations are so complicated anyway that children who live with their 2 biological parents who are still married are becoming a minority in big cities. My mother who is a schoolteacher in Montreal observed the same thing. The situation is probably very similar in Toronto. Here, however, I can imagine that having unmarried parents might possibly be a social stigma for children. So, if you are worried about your children being teased because they are "different" it might be a good idea to check out what the "norm" is. But no matter what one does, there will always probably be something for your children to be teased about unless they conform absolutely, so there is not much you can do about it; if you differ with society so much in your opinion of marriage, my bet is that you probably differ in many other ways, and your child will be different from the norm anyway. 3/ one can't really answer that question without an oracle. I guess it all depends on how your child is, and how you explain your reasons for your choice of marrital situation to him/her. Additional comments: I have an abundant wealth of older cousins who seem to have tried every possible marital situation, and explaining relationships between people in my family to outsiders is not an easy task. In these terrible messes of multiple marriages, divorces, out-of-wedlock and in-of-wed- lock children, the happiest children of the lot seem to be the ones who are in a family where people get along well together; this includes single parents and married and unmarried couples who get along well. I think that it is not the marriage of their parents which necessarily make the children happier, but the fact that people around them love each other and get along together well. Sophie Quigley ...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigley
andrew@orca.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) (09/13/84)
I think that this is terribly unfair to any kids you may have. Your
children will be ridiculed and may be treated as second-class citizens.
We're not so far from the days when a "bastard" was considered an
untouchable and had fewer legal rights that "legitimate" people. And
young children will be the first to use cruel and irrational taunts to
make your kids feel like dirt.
There's also the question of inheritance. If you're not legally
married, there may be a problem if one or both of you die. I don't
know about Canada, but in the states inheritance is taxed at a lower
rate, sometimes not at all, when property passes to the deceased's
legal spouse. (Most of the states have eliminated the concept of
"common law marriage".)
Hmmm ... you may have trouble traveling. In many places it is illegal
for an innkeeper to rent a room to an unmarried couple. In some of the
more medieval countries (Arabia?), just being together may get you in
big trouble.
My beloved and I went through some of these problems when we were
"living together". We had a great deal of trouble renting a house
together, and later had the same problems in buying. In the state of
Michigan, cohabitation is illegal, and any neighbor with a grudge
against us could have had us arrested.
We eventually got married because one of us got a new job in a state
far away, and we wanted the company to pay to move both of us. They
would only do this if we were married.
On the other hand, once we were married our US income tax went up by
$6000/year because we both earn professional salaries.
You can't win ...
-- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP]
(orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay) [ARPA]hlb@loral.UUCP () (09/19/84)
There is one important point to consider when raising children out of wedlock. What type of example does it set for a child. Perhaps that child is a daughter and at age seventeen wishes to have a child without benefit of husband or bread-winner. I think when the shoe is on the other foot attitudes will change. How does one explain to a teenager that what is ok for the parent is not ok for them.( This seems to be their prevailing argument). If your son or daughter did have a child out of wedlock are you quite prepared to be legally responsible for the child and quite possibly raise the child to adulthood. Yes, it is very difficult to get a divorce and it can be messy at times. But, you don't enter into it with this in mind. And, if this is the reason behind not getting married then the relationship is doomed. Simply because it is built on a shakey foundation. As far as divorce affecting children, a child or even a teenager for that matter, has no real understanding of the word. To them it is a simple matter of their parents no longer being together. This can be devastating regardless of the marital status. One last point, the female in one of these relationships may not consider marriage important now but, wait. It will come up. It is important to male and female alike to know and feel the security of knowing that you are willing to commit yourself. Just some thoughts.