gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (10/13/84)
I will make every effort not to misquote. > From: chabot@amber.DEC (Lisa S. Chabot) >> Doug Hosking >> I think the worst part of interracial relationships is the possibility of >> having children. Hold the flames... (Ouch!) I have nothing against this >> personally. My only real concern is that the kids that may result from this >> relationship are very likely to get LOTS of abuse from other kids. It's >> bad enough being a kid if you stand out at all from the others, but it seems >> to be 10 times as bad if you're of a "different" race. I said something a while back about bringing up kids where the parents have different religious backgrounds or beliefs, and I think the same applies to here. Kids do get lots of abuse from other kids (perhaps because of opinions inflicted upon them by parents, but perhaps due to television or just plain peer pressure) and being the offspring of a mixed marriage might make one "different" (in looks, personality, etc.). I know something of what it is like to be teased at an early age -- wearing thick glasses, being tall and smarter than everyone else (up until high school) tends to make one stand out in a disfavorable way to other kids. I don't know if being the offspring of a mixed marriage is any worse than this, but it's no better. >> If you're an Oriental woman and you want to marry a black man, it's no big >> deal. It's a conscious decision for both of you, and if it's what you both >> want, that's great. You've made the decision to live with the harassment >> you're likely to get from others, and presumably believe you can cope with >> it. But what about your children ? They have no say in the matter at all. >> Almost no matter where you live, they're going to stand out as being >> different, and they may have a lot of trouble dealing with the abuse that's >> bound to result. I'm not sure I'd want to subject someone to a childhood >> like that. > Well, I'm certain I wouldn't want to subject anyone to a childhood resulting > in an adulthood so much tainted with lurking racial prejudice. I'm not sure what you mean here, but I agree with the reasons Doug stated above. If I wanted to marry out of my race, religion or whatever, I am making a conscious decision and so is my wife-to-be, to cope with the difficulties involved. However, kids are different. (If you're lucky) you can bring them up to appreciate the fact that they are different and teach them that anyone who feels that being different is wrong is ignorant and not worth thinking about. However, the harsh cold reality is that many people are going to be ignorant, and it is asking a lot from the kids to put up with that kind of constant abuse until they are sufficiently equipped to deal with it themselves. (I'll probably get flamed at for the above, but although I'd like nothing better than to conquer all ignorance, I must be realistic and realize that it DOES exist, and is difficult to overcome.) ... more from Lisa, probably sarcastic ... > Actually, kids like kids. They have to be taught that this neat new person > who's the same height and has the same interests and is otherwise interesting, > is really icky. Adults teach them that "different" skin colors are ugly. Yeah, but who's going to teach them? Ok, you, your husband, perhaps some of your relatives, friends and neighbors. You can't really count on anyone else though, and more than likely they will teach your kids the opposite, that they are different. I'm not so sure of the above either ("Kids like kids"). I don't know, perhaps it might be my own experience. (First of all, let's define kids here -- I think you might be thinking of young children, perhaps 5-10. I think I am thinking of 11-16. Perhaps I am in error here, because by the time someone is about 13, they have developed most of the personality they will carry for the rest of their lives.) Anyhow, if we're talking about young kids, you're prob- ably right, because at a young age kids are mostly into playing (I know I was) and not into looks or anything else. Perhaps it has something to do with the coming of adolescence, when kids start looking at themselves and each other and becoming conscious of their appearances that they find other kids who are different, ugly. I know that when I turned 11 I started getting a lot of flak for being tall, wearing glasses, and being smarter than everyone else, and it lasted up until 15 I guess (I wasn't smarter than everyone else any- more :-) but the point is that somewhere along the line, the "differences" will start to make a difference among kids and it would be nice to minimize the differences. Note: I'm not saying that I wouldn't marry someone of another color and have kids or anything like that. I'm just saying that it's a step that requires some consideration and shouldn't be dismissed so quickly. It's easy to say "I'll do this if this situation comes up" but it's much harder to acutally do those things, because most of the time you'r thinking "It'll never happen to ME!" I welcome other people's comments, especially those who can speak from exper- ience. -- Hug me till you drug me, honey! Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo
agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta) (10/13/84)
> ... more from Lisa, probably sarcastic ... > >> Actually, kids like kids. They have to be taught that this neat new person >> who's the same height and has the same interests and is otherwise interesting >> is really icky. Adults teach them that "different" skin colors are ugly. > > Yeah, but who's going to teach them? Ok, you, your husband, perhaps some of > your relatives, friends and neighbors. You can't really count on anyone else > though, and more than likely they will teach your kids the opposite, that > they are different. > > I'm not so sure of the above either ("Kids like kids"). I don't know, perhaps > it might be my own experience. (First of all, let's define kids here -- I > think you might be thinking of young children, perhaps 5-10. I think I am > thinking of 11-16. Where did you even get the idea that she was being sarcastic? I didn't take it sarcastically the first time I saw it, and still don't. Now, before I continue here, a few points that I'd like to make (my opinions, if you will). First, I don't think that it is only the WASP parenets that say the other skin colours, religions, cultures, etc, are "icky". I think that a fair portion of the other races, religions, and cultures also teach this. Second, I don't think that it is necessarily always the parents (or other adults) that teach this to kids. I think that a fair numbe rof kids learn it from other kids. Obviously not ALL kids do, since it has to start somewhere. I also think that TV may have a bit of an impact on this. How many shows have done something on interracial dating, in which the basic message has been that it is alright, but the underlying tone the entire show is that there is something wrong with it? Ok, now that we have gotten this out of the way, where did you (Greg) get the idea that there is that much antipathy between kids in the first place? I think there is alot of playful competition, and harrassing, but I never really thought that there was hate from a majority. I think kids will realize on there own that they are different. I also think that even though they realize they are different and others realize that they are different, they are still treated ok. We seem to be breaking this up into two different age groups, so: in the 5-10 age group, I don't really think that kids are that much different. I don' think that kids realize they are that much different, either. As Greg said, they play together, and generally seem to get along ok. In the 11-16 age group, things do change. There seems to be more "hunting" of the opposite sex, so they have to classify what is wanted and what isn't. I also think that be y these ages, kids have realized that they should be tolerant of other groups, and in many cases that there is actually nothing wrong. It wasn't that long ago that I was in that age range, and other than some real beligerent a**holes, everybody got along fine. There were quite a few ethnic and racist jokes flying around, but it was in fun. Most people saw no real reason to get down on other people, and didn't. So my question is that where did this attitude that kids of interracial mariages would be harrassed anyway? I think as soon as you point this out to a (your) kid, he'll be watching for it, and find it, simply because he/she has different attitude toward how people will treat him. I f you bring him up without teaching him that people are different in this aspect, he probably won't notice it as much. Just something to keep in mind ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Banta {decvax!allegra!ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-k!agz Dept. of Mental Instability, Purdue University --- "I'm OK, You're a CS Major" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "And in the quiet that followed, We realized that there was little difference at all ... "
gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (10/17/84)
> From: agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta) >> From: gregbo@houxm (Greg Skinner) >> ... more from Lisa, probably sarcastic ... >> >>> Actually, kids like kids. They have to be taught that this neat new person >>> who's the same height and has the same interests and is otherwise interes- >>> ting is really icky. Adults teach them that "different" skin colors are >>> ugly. >> >> Yeah, but who's going to teach them? Ok, you, your husband, perhaps some of >> your relatives, friends and neighbors. You can't really count on anyone else >> though, and more than likely they will teach your kids the opposite, that >> they are different. >> >> I'm not so sure of the above either ("Kids like kids"). I don't know, per- >> haps it might be my own experience. (First of all, let's define kids here. >> I think you might be thinking of young children, perhaps 5-10. I think I am >> thinking of 11-16. > Where did you even get the idea that she was being sarcastic? I didn't > take it sarcastically the first time I saw it, and still don't. Excerpts from Lisa's original article that made me think it was sarcastic. (Did you believe she actually MEANT these things? >> Ugly kids get teased. Hey, and speaking of which, it's not just people of >> "different" races who are ugly: there are just plain ugly people, right? You >> know, fat/skinny science fiction fans, and people who aren't hairy/hairless >> to my standards, people with freckles...these people are disgusting. They >> should not be allowed to walk around in any neighborhoods (don't want them >> making impressions on my kids) (my kids might think it's okay to be ugly) >> (yuck). And breeding is RIGHT OUT! Hey, I'm not prejudiced, they can live >> their lives (away from me) and all, but do they think they can inflict their >> ugliness on their kids (and on the rest of the world) with impunity? It's >> also documented (hey, I know my sources-- Ann Landers) that beautiful people >> can also turn out ugly kids. Must be bad genes. Better track down family >> histories, and make sure there have never been any ugly offspring (well, we >> could drown them...). Only people with licenses can have children! The >> purity of >GACK!!< >CHOKE< AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA^C It came after "Kids like kids", so I guess I was mistaken. Sorry. Anyhow, back to your article. > Now, before I continue here, a few points that I'd like to make (my opinions, > if you will). First, I don't think that it is only the WASP parenets > that say the other skin colours, religions, cultures, etc, are "icky". I > think that a fair portion of the other races, religions, and cultures > also teach this. Second, I don't think that it is necessarily always the > parents (or other adults) that teach this to kids. I think that a fair > number of kids learn it from other kids. Obviously not ALL kids do, > since it has to start somewhere. I also think that TV may have a bit of > an impact on this. How many shows have done something on interracial > dating, in which the basic message has been that it is alright, but the > underlying tone the entire show is that there is something wrong with > it? I agree. In the first article I posted on this subject, I discussed my father's feelings about my sister dating a white guy -- he seems more opposed to the idea than her boyfriend's parents (at least that is what I have been led to believe). Also, I'd say that TV contributes a lot also. > Ok, now that we have gotten this out of the way, where did you (Greg) > get the idea that there is that much antipathy between kids in the first > place? I broke it down into two ages, 5-10 and 11-16. Seems like all the hatred comes up in the latter. > So my question is that where did this attitude that kids of interracial > mariages would be harrassed anyway? I think as soon as you point this > out to a (your) kid, he'll be watching for it, and find it, simply > because he/she has different attitude toward how people will treat him. > If you bring him up without teaching him that people are different in > this aspect, he probably won't notice it as much. Just something to keep > in mind ... It came, I guess, from the attitude that kids who are "different" from the rest of the kids would be harrassed. If we allow that the adolescents are going to do most of the teasing, I claim that no matter what you teach your kids (whether or not you make your kids aware of what they are) they will encounter difficulties at a time when they have to face enough difficulties. The question I, as a parent, would ask myself, is if I can raise my kids to rise above the ignorant people who harass them. At this point in my life, I don't think that I could, because I'm still trying to cope with my own place in society. I guess that's why I'm not a parent yet. -- Hug me till you drug me, honey! Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo