jam@ho95b.UUCP (Joe Malecki) (01/02/85)
We have a little girl who is now 2 years, 3 months old. She has a will
of iron. The problem we have usually occurs at bedtime and nap time
when we want her to go to sleep, but the issue of getting her to do
something she doesn't want to do is a general one.
At bed/naptime, she tries anything in order to get out of going
to sleep. She is very verbal, and is the best negotiator I have ever
met. Well, we decided we can't let a two-year old tell us when she is
going to bed, so we inform her that she is going anyway. Screaming is
the usual reply. We tell her that she doesn't have to sleep, that she
can read books, play with toys, or whatever, as long as she stays in
bed. She will have no part of going to bed, preferring instead to stay
with Mommy and Daddy (nothing wrong with that, really, but she DOES
need to sleep sometime).
We read books endlessly to her sometimes, and then she will stay in her
bed, but if we leave, the screaming begins. After one night when we
continuously put her back in bed as soon as she crawled out screaming,
(this going on for a solid hour) she doesn't dare get out of bed.
But she sits at the foot screaming, crying, pleading, demanding, etc.
continuously.
The situation is now similar to our general discipline problem. When
we send her to her room because we've tried everything short of
hitting her, she refuses to stay in the room, and screams and yells.
She tries to force her way out of the room, and a couple of times
we've closed the door on her (which tears me up to do that, but we're
at our wits' end.) If we don't lock her in, she just gets
out of the room, and hasn't been disciplined. If we let
her sit on the edge of the bed screaming, she is also pretty much getting
her own way.
We've been told by many people that a good spanking is what she needs.
But the couple of times we've reluctantly done so, she tells us,
"Don't hit me. You shouldn't hit me!" which is precisely what we tell
her when she hits us. It's tough to argue with that.
Does anybody have any suggestions, anecdotes, etc., which might be of
help?
Joe Malecki
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Room 4K-223
Holmdel, NJ 07733
201-949-4847
{ihnp4, allegra, cbosgd}!ho95b!jamrwh@aesat.UUCP (Russ Herman) (01/03/85)
First of all, are you sure she really needs as much sleep as you think? Like
adults, children's sleep requirements vary. It's pretty easy to tell when
they're tired at that age: they start getting crabby, rubbing their eyes, etc.
Don't pay any attention to her verbal statements: my 3 year old has been known
to deny that he's tired, then, two minutes later, be asleep sitting up on the
sofa!
I don't think that not sleeping is a "spanking offense". While I'm not
ideologically opposed to spanking, I've never had to resort to it either.
Isolation has always been a sufficient deterrent for my son.
You are doing the right thing, basically. Instead of telling her that
it's "nap time", tell her that it's "quiet time", and that she has to go
up to her room, and stay there. Get a digital clock for her to watch, and
tell her that she's going to have to stay until <digit><digit><digit>
(sorry all you flamers about kids' not learning to tell time).
Then do your best to ignore her until the designated time. Be persistent,
and don't respond to her anger with more anger, or with placation.
Don't be reluctant to confine her to the room - if she wants to scream, that's
her privilege. Remember that unrewarded behavior is eventually extinguished.
Kids need to learn that there are some things in life that they just have to
put up with, like sitting at the table during meals, going to sleep at
night, etc. A few things that comprise normal civilised human behavior.
--
______ Russ Herman
/ \ {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!rwh
@( ? ? )@
( || ) The opinions above are strictly personal, and
( \__/ ) do not reflect those of my employer (or even
\____/ possibly myself an hour from now.)garys@bunker.UUCP (01/03/85)
Our daughter is 2 years, 1 month old, and we have simlilar problems getting her to bed. General discipline we don't seem to have as much trouble with. Something that works well for us in getting our daughter to bed at night is for one of us (almost always my wife, but I have done it, too) to lie down with her until she goes to sleep. The title of your article suggests that you've already decided on the kind of answer you want to hear. But I recommend a good spanking, if nothing else works. And I don't mean a reluctant one, where she is able to make you feel ashamed for disciplining her. The rules for adults are different from the rules for children (which gradually change as the child gets older, until the children become adults and the rules match). (If anyone argues that the rules for two-year-olds should be the same as for adults, tell me how the two-year-old you have in mind earns a living.) Anecdote: When the second child of some friends of ours, a girl, was 2, she started a practice of waking up in the wee hours of the morning and screaming for an hour or two. After several nights of attempting to discover the problem, (Are you hurt? scared? etc.) one night the mother informed her that if she didn't go back to bed, she would be spanked with a wooden spoon. The girl proceeded to get up; she was spanked, and put back in bed. Immediately she got up again and was spanked again. This process was repeated several times that one night, before the girl stayed in bed. The next night it happened exactly once, and after that it didn't happen again. Yes, you feel rotten when you have to spank your child. And the child knows that, and will exploit the fact to try to make you feel more rotten so you won't do it again. But who's training whom? In our own case, we haven't had to resort to such severe punishment. (But if we have to, we will, and I think our daughter knows that, since we have spanked her before.) An interesting observation the same friend had was that our daughter would go to bed without any fuss for her when she wouldn't for us, so we know that it is simply a matter of asserting her will. I hope this is helpful; I also hope I don't sound like a know-it-all; I can only say what seems to work, and why I think it does. Gary Samuelson ittvax!bunker!garys
reza@ihuxb.UUCP (Reza Taheri) (01/03/85)
My daughter is younger than yours (19-months old), so I don't want this to sound like the definitive voice of experience. The thing that seems to work with her is consistency. We had problems with putting her to bed for about six months, starting at when she was 9-months old. She would gladly go to bed some nights, and stay up crying for over an hour other nights. This went on until I decided I had had enough. She was put to bed exactly at 8 pm every night, even if she was being a "good girl." After about one week she adjusted to the new schedule and we haven't had any problems ever since. She may even stay up as late as 9 pm if she is obviously not tired; but as long as it does not become a habit. The same goes for a method of discipline. You need a form of discipline that you use very rarely and every time you have used it you have made sure your wishes have been fully carried out. Then that will be your ultimate weapon. The problem is that people overuse the punishment that works to the extent that it becomes useless. If you tell your kid to go to his/her room 50 times a day, then the phrase has been heard so much that it loses its effects. You want a form of discipline that the child knows you use only when you are very serious and every time it has been used, you (the parents) have won. Unfortunately, spanking perfectly fits this scenario, that's why it works. Try a new kind of discipline and the first few times that you use it, see to it that it gives positive results. Then only re-use it on special occasions. It does not have to be a harsh punishment. For example, instead of sending the kid to her room when she does something bad, force her to sit WITH you. That is, she has to sit next to her parents while they are reading a book and aren't talking. She'll be bored out of her mind. H. Reza Taheri ...!ihnp4!ihuxb!reza (312)-979-7473
dwl10@amdahl.UUCP (Dave Lowrey) (01/04/85)
> > We've been told by many people that a good spanking is what she needs. > But the couple of times we've reluctantly done so, she tells us, > "Don't hit me. You shouldn't hit me!" which is precisely what we tell > her when she hits us. It's tough to argue with that. > When my wife and I had our son, Adam, we had two things we were NEVER going to do. One was to use a pacifier(sp?) and the other was to spank him. Well, we didn't use the pacifier. Adam borders on the hyperactive. He started the "terrible twos" at age 1&1/2 and is now just starting to get "under controll" at age four. We finally have to break down and spank him on occasions. When we do, we try to let him know that he is being punished, and why. I think this only serves to relieve our guilt, but it also gives us time to think before we hit him. After a while, the threat of a spanking was usually enough to get the desired results. We say "If you dont XXXXX by the count of three, I will have to punish you ONE (he ignores us), TWO (he starts to try to justify his actions, or to start begging), THREE! (8 times out of 10, he will go do, or stop doing whatever it was we wanted). I often wonder if I am doing the right thing, as when I was a child, I lied alot to avoid being spanked. But this has been the only method of controlling him at times. Your other problem seems to be that you are trying to reason with a two year old. This only works in favor of the child! An example: Me: Do good boys do XXXXX? Adam: No. Me: Did you do XXXXX? Adam: Yes. Me: Are you a good boy? Adam: Yes. On the nap and sleeping situation...We finally had to give up on naps. It became so much work and screaming and fighting to get him to nap, that we just said forget it. He still needs one alot of times, so my wife will do her shopping, etc in the afternoon and Adam will often fall asleep in the car (hopefully on the way home). All I can say is hang in there! It does get better. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Lowrey "GORT...Klatu borada niktow" ...!{nsc,sun,hplabs,ihnp4}!amdahl!dwl10 [ The opinions expressed <may> be those of the author and not necessarily those of his most eminent employer. ]
canopus@amdahl.UUCP (Flaming Asteroid) (01/04/85)
> We've been told by many people that a good spanking is what she needs. > But the couple of times we've reluctantly done so, she tells us, > "Don't hit me. You shouldn't hit me!" which is precisely what we tell > her when she hits us. It's tough to argue with that. This is a tough one... but in relation to bed/naptime, what we have done is just cut out the naps. Makes the kid a little crankier by evening, but generally willing to go to bed (8 PM at our house for a 5 and a 3 year old). You might also try taking the kid to a park for an hour or so for some intense physical exercise (running around, etc). Discipline is a very tough issue to address, since each child responds uniquely to it. Some kids can be reasoned with, some can't. Punishment for our kids is confinement to the bedroom for a period of time. We handled the inevitable tantrums, screaming, and general property destruction as follows: We tell them that if they want to scream and cry, it's OK as long as they confine it to their room. We tell them that we do not tolerate emptying the contents of the dresser onto the floor, nor the smashing of toys. This seems to work, though screaming and crying will carry on for as much as 15 or 20 minutes (which can seem like an eternity). It is important to use a tone of voice when saying this that means business (picture Darth Vader: "You WILL pay for your lack of vision"). We have never REALLY spanked, although unacceptable behavior is usually met lightning fast with a single swat on the bottom (and a quick trip to the bedroom when feasible). This element of shock/surprise for us has always worked. I realize it is negative reinforcement, but my experience with children has led me to the conclusion that a little aversion therapy works wonders! -- Frank Dibbell (408-746-6493) ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,nsc}!amdahl!canopus [R.A. 6h 22m 30s Dec. -52d 36m] [Generic disclaimer...]
charliep@v1.UUCP (Charlie Perkins) (01/06/85)
I have to come out in favor of spanking. We resort to this only
rarely (every month or two) -- and it is usually in response to
some obviously defiant behavior. Since our first line of discipline
is sending our daughter to bed, spanking usually happens there, too.
We try to overcome the bad associations of bed by reading stories, etc. there.
Someone mentioned that screaming was their daughter's right. I think
there is merit to this idea, but when I want to sleep, I cannot
allow our daughter to scream on and on. Besides which, I really
think that she sometimes is crying out of meanness. So, if sending
to bed does not work, and screaming persists, a spanking is first
threatened and (if necessary) carried out.
My wife was until recently a preschool teacher, and she is convinced
that one of the things that would have been most helpful for the
kids is an occasional spanking! Really, the things she told me would
make you want to spank the kids too -- like when they come to her and
kick her on the shins. If you knew my wife, you would know that she
is sinfully meek, so that I am sure she does not provoke such attacks.
{ Aside: BE SURE to check out sanitary conditions, toys, and other stuff
if you decide to place your child in a preschool. There are
such schools that are poorly managed and dangerous for children.
The danger can be either physical or emotional; for instance,
a rowdy class might encourage your child to pick up bad
habits, and an unsanitary school can send your child to the
hospital with meningitis or something. }
I agree with the parent who said that discipline should be used
sparingly. For us, usually an explanation or a warning will be all
that is required. But (and this has been a surprise of sorts for me)
kids AREN'T always rational! And, I really agree with everyone who
mentioned that empty threats (of whatever nature) are damaging to
the parent-child relationship.
My mind is still open though. I'd really like to hear about methods
of discipline that REALLY work as alternatives to spanking. I would
much prefer to remove that technique from my repertoire. I cannot help
but believe that children build up resentment somewhere after they
have been spanked -- or else that they think they are intrinsically
bad.
--
Charlie Perkins, IBM T.J. Watson Research
philabs!v1!charliep, perk%YKTVMX.BITNET@berkeley, perk.yktvmx.ibm@csnet-relaycarlton@masscomp.UUCP (Carlton Hommel) (01/06/85)
In article <286@ho95b.UUCP> jam@ho95b.UUCP (Joe Malecki) writes: >But the issue of getting her to do something she doesn't want to do >is a general one. >We've been told by many people that a good spanking is what she needs. >But the couple of times we've reluctantly done so, she tells us, >"Don't hit me. You shouldn't hit me!" which is precisely what we tell >her when she hits us. It's tough to argue with that. As a governess, I've seen this problem twice. Good to excellent results were achieved by the following: Define the problem. The real problem is not sleep. It is control. Your child is learning to manipulate you, and while this may be useful if they are planning on running for public office, it is not appropriate inside a family. Decide what dicipline is in your own minds. Emotionally, it is far more harmful for both _you_ and the child to have her sit and scream then to have her spanked. Talk to your child. When she states "Don't hit me. You shouldn't hit me!" assert that _you_ are the parent. You did not run for the office, and you are not goverened by a majority rule. As a parent, you have certain responsibilities. Curbing this behaivor is one. As far as spanking goes, make sure that is done privately. Humiliation is not healthy. It should be done calmly, and the anger should be dissasociated from the physical hitting. Carefully explain that you are not hitting her because you feel like it, but to provide punctuation to your stand. Children to not need their parents to be "buddies." Parents do not live by the same rules as their 2 year olds. Your child must grow secure in the knowledge that you will stop her _before_ she makes a huge mistake, and not make her deal with issues she has no resources to handle. This approach has worked for me with two girls in two different families. Both children learned to assert themselves in other ways. (Which cake mix to make, what present to get for mommie, where to visit on vacation, etc) Rest assured, you are not stifling their growth. Best of luck. Alana Hommel (for Carl Hommel) Husband: I don't wanna eat my brussel's sprouts! Wife: Then its off to bed with no dessert.
elt@astrovax.UUCP (Ed Turner) (01/07/85)
Discipline is a toughie. Here are a few things my wife and I have noticed in the course of raising our own and watching our friends raise theirs. 1) You should ALMOST NEVER (i.e., once a year at most) back down on something you have said, whether it is telling a child not to do something or threatening a specific punishment. The reason is obvious; how is the child to know in the future whether you mean it or whether you don't. Some people get into an awful trap this way. They place some act or behavior off limits, but their child persists, and eventually they relent and allow it. Next time they hold their ground longer, but the child still wins out in the end. The next time it takes even longer and so on. Unconsciously, the parents are teaching the child that he/she need only draw out the issue long enough to have a chance of getting their way. Soon even the smallest issues of discipline take hours or even days to resolve. Conversely, if you always mean what you say, the child soon learns to take your word for it. 2) Try no to nag your child and constantly be correcting its behavior on relatively minor points. Forbid behavior that is dangerous or really unacceptable but try not to be authoritarian about things that are merely annoying. The main reason for this beyond not overly suppressing the child's self expression is that children easily learn to "tune out" too frequent nagging. Then they almost literally don't hear you when the issue is more important. 3) Some children (or maybe all children at some age) respond positively to what their parents consider negative reinforcement. They so love to be the center of attention that they prefer being punished to being ignored. This can be a particular problem if the child is not getting enough other attention from the parents; even spankings can be preferable to what is in their eyes neglect. In this case ignoring bad behavior and responding strongly with attention to good behavior can sometimes work wonders. 4) Try to have rules that the child can understand and punishments that are applied consistently and uniformly. If the child cannot predict what behavior will displease you and how it will be punished, he/she is likely to see it as merely capriscious harrasment on your part. Problems of this sort can easily occur for small children who, for instance, cannot easily see why acceptable behavior at home is unacceptable in a restaurant or at grandparents' house. 5) Spanking (assuming it is not brutal) is not particularly more effective or more extreme than other punishments except perhaps for very small children who may not understand what other forms of punishment are all about. Parents who spank regularly may still fall into all of the traps described above (and no doubt others) and have as bad a discipline problems as parents who don't spank. Just switching from a no spanking to a spanking policy will not usually solve your problems. 6) Love your children and let them know they are loved as much as you can. This will cause them to *want* to please you. This is the easiest and in the long run the most effective "discipline". 7) Remember none of this or indeed anything works all the time or for all children. Ed Turner astrovax!elt P.S. - Please excuse me if this article sounds a bit arrogant or "know it all" ish. We have had our discipline problems too.
plw@drutx.UUCP (KerrPL) (01/07/85)
I had to chuckle at Russ Herman's "quite time" for the phrase "nap time". My Mother changed her "Nap for 1 hour" to "Quite time for 60 minutes" from as long as I can remember. (Of course I was the fourth kid in my family). My daughter had her nights for staying up much earlier than most of the stories I have been seeing. The only one that would work for us is the same ole saying, "Let them scream it out". During the day, the punishment was a corner. If she peeked out of the corner, she would stay in another 5 minutes. Patti Kerr
geoff@desint.UUCP (Geoff Kuenning) (01/08/85)
Boy, this one sure got us going! And, by and large, the responses have been
outstanding. Ken Arndt, in particular, gets kudos, as does Henry Mensch and
just about all you others.
But of course Noisy here (me) can't resist putting in his two bits worth. As
with many, it hits close to home. My crisis came at about 2 AM one night,
when I couldn't get Alyssa to go potty. So I spanked her. She stiffened her
body and refused to sit on the toilet. Ever try to get a stiff three-year-old
onto a toilet? Doesn't work. So I spanked her harder. So she got stiffer.
So I spanked her harder. Needless to say, it didn't work.
At that point I realized I was way too close to hitting her as hard as I could,
and I just wasn't going to win. I walked out and turned her over to her
mother, who comforted her and cajoled her into going potty.
I'm not sure I've spanked a kid since (not that I've ever been much of a
spanker). A friend who has taught me most of what I know about the B-word
(I'll define it later) summed it up quite simply: "You can't get somebody to
do something by punishing them. You can get them to *not do* something with
punishment, but it is almost impossible to encourage a behavior by punishing
its absence."
(I should mention here, in case people think its relevant, that Alyssa isn't
mine and I no longer live with her, my worse luck.)
If you want to know how I have given up spanking (well, not 100% -- it's just
that I've been fortunate enough to avoid any really horrible situations
lately -- but it's been two years), I have a book to recommend for you. If
I remember the title correctly, it's called "Anyone can have a Happy Child."
It's a cheap, readable paperback. You should be able to find it in "Books
in Print." I found it to be outstandingly helpful. I was pretty good with
handling Alyssa before I read it, but the tricks I learned from it are the
reason I could stop spanking entirely.
The best thing I learned from that book is that the best punishment is
boredom. Take the child and sit him/her in a kid-sized chair, facing a blank
wall. Explain to them that they will be allowed to leave the chair as soon
as they stop screaming/crying. If they try to leave the chair, firmly but
impersonally put them back. Repeatedly. If you have spanked a lot in the
past and have a defiant child, you may find yourself resorting to spanking to
keep them there. That's fine (at first), if it works. As soon as they stop
crying or whatever, go to them, hug them, and tell them that you love them.
At first you will probably have to settle for only one or two seconds'
silence, but you should work up to a goodly amount of time, like a minute. I
have found this one to be a remarkably magic wand. Alyssa is *considerably*
more impressed by the threat of "the chair" than she used to be by the
occasional spanking. It is important, though, that there be *nothing* to
do -- no knicknacks within reach. If they try to talk to you (I've had two
brothers each try to justify their side of the story), ignore them. Don't
*tell* them your are going to ignore them and so they should shut up, because
then you've validated them a bit and they will press their case further.
Just ignore them completely.
By the way, I don't recommend telling them to think about what a bad thing they
did or what bad kids they are. The latter unnecessarily strikes deep into
their self-confidence (and I doubt they *are* "bad" kids, in most cases). The
former gives them something to think about and dwell on, which defeats the
prime goal of boring them. I think the boredom is why it works so well. A
spanking gives you an opportunity to feel sorry for yourself and wallow in
tears, which isn't much fun but it's a lot better than being bored.
An advantage of "the chair" over sending the kid to her room is that
sending to the room makes the room a place associated with punishment, so that
it is harder to get her to go there to play when you need some *QUIET*. And
the room has toys to play with, so that the punishment can become an
unintentional reward.
With respect to her sitting on the bed screaming, Joe, I wonder what's her
payoff? Why does she do that? My theory is that even adults don't do many
things unless they are getting *something* out of it, and kids essentially
never do. My suspicion would be that the payoff is attention from her
parents. After half an hour or more, your head is ready to split, so you
decide to try something else -- which means you just proved to her that
screaming works, because *eventually* Mommy or Daddy will notice you did it.
Sure, they spanked you again, but maybe next time they'll give in early.
And you know they are paying attention to your screaming.
With behaviors that are 100% attention-getting, the best way to suppress them
is to not give them what they want. Ignore them. Be stoic. Then be more
stoic. I remember one night when Alyssa was sent to her room (this was before
I learned about chairs). There was a loud crash from the room. Her mother
jumped up, dashed into the room, and (calmly) asked Alyssa if she was all
right. A dresser drawer was scattered all over the place. Alyssa said she
wasn't hurt; mom said "OK," it the most matter-of-fact tone imaginable,
turned around and went back to her crossword. Alyssa stopped crying shortly
thereafter, and after things had been well forgotten she had to pick up most
of the mess by herself. Hasn't happened again. Mom made sure she didn't
have a hospital problem, and then didn't provide any other payoff. A smart
lady; I'm still learning things from her.
One final thing that may help is to profusely recognize the nights when she
*does* go to bed quietly. There must be some of those -- maybe once a month
or less, but at least some nights she must be too sleepy to put up a fight.
On those nights, don't say anything, but give her an extra long hug (by the
clock if you can) or some other small non-awakening warmth. In the morning,
(here I'm paraphrasing the book so bad I'm almost plagiarizing, because I
had to damn near memorize this part to get it right), go to her and tell her
how pleased you were that she went so quietly. Something like this:
"Honey, I wanted to let you know how proud I was of you last night. You
went to bed all by yourself, and you went right to sleep with your
teddy bear [make it as vivid as possible]. I was really pleased because
you were so grown-up. You sure are a nice little girl, and I'm sure glad
I get to be your Mommy/Daddy."
A little later (NOT right away), go to her and spend some time with her doing
something she likes. The idea is to do is soon enough that she develops
an unconscious association between the praise (which is associated with
behaving) and the time spent. But you don't want to do it so soon that she
figures this out consciously, or she will start to expect it. And you don't
want to get trapped into doing this forever -- when she starts behaving, you
should get more and more intermittent until she is "weaned" on this issue.
Some don'ts: don't be negative, especially when you are trying to be positive.
My rule is to avoid the word "didn`t". In other words, DON'T say "you were
so good last night, you *didn't* do this bad thing, you *didn't* do that
bad thing." You don't want to remind them of the misbehaviors, and you don't
want them to feel like they are irretrievably bad. In fact, at this point you
don't want them to feel bad at all -- you are trying to reinforce a good
behavior by making them feel good. Far better to be lavish.
And don't contract with the kid. The classic mistake is "if you go to bed
tonight, I'll buy you an ice cream cone tomorrow morning." Now you've
established a price. One quiet bedtime buys one ice cream cone. Next comes
raising the ante...
Those are my basic rules. There's a lot more in the book, and in other books
by (and for) people who don't get excited at the B-word, but those are the
ones I remember and live by. I expect I will spank a few more kids before I
die, but I don't expect there to be many. You gotta be incredibly stoic at
first, but just keep asking yourself "what's the payoff?" There always is
one. In young kids, it's usually attention, positive or negative, which is
neat for you and me because it's easy to take away. If you can effectively
take away the payoff, that is frequently enough to get rid of a bad
behavior. If not, find a payoff for a behavior that is incompatible with the
bad one (by this I mean rewarding something that is truly incompatible in the
sense of swimming and riding a bicycle simultaneously, not an "if you don't
misbehave you'll get rewarded" double-negative contract).
Enough. I've bent your ears too long already, and half of you are probably
wondering what this guy with no kids of his own and not even living with any
anymore is doing shooting off his mouth like this. I wonder myself, in fact.
Oh, yes -- the B-word, which strikes terror into the hearts of weak men:
Behaviorism.
--
Geoff Kuenning
...!ihnp4!trwrb!desint!geoffallenm@ittvax.UUCP (Allen Matsumoto) (01/08/85)
I think discipline is very much a matter of personal choice. There is certainly no agreement on cause/effect relationships for types of punishments or rewards. But there is a lot in this article which bothers me, so I am trying to respond to this calmly. To make my position explicit, I am opposed to spanking. I don't believe spanking is good for raising children. I don't see how it could avoid encouraging violence. The occasional use of spanking must be tempered with copious amounts of love (if violence has to be resorted to at all). > I have to come out in favor of spanking. We resort to this only > rarely (every month or two) -- and it is usually in response to > some obviously defiant behavior. I don't consider "every month or two" to be even close to "rarely." I have hit my eldest once when she was 3 and was about to run into the street without looking. The one spanking was a quick swat, and it achieved more surprise than pain; she was really astounded that I actually hit her. The surprise was the most effective part of the entire affair. I haven't spanked either of our other children (yet?). It seems to me that anyone who thinks monthly is rare, must have a frightening belief of what "normal spanking" would be. Obviously we aren't talking about child abuse, but that's still a lot more spanking than I would have imagined parents have to resort to. Am I completely unrealistic in this? I don't think once a year would bother me (much), but once a month? > Since our first line of discipline is sending our daughter to bed, > spanking usually happens there, too. We try to overcome the bad > associations of bed by reading stories, etc. there. This makes sense to me. What about the bad associations of being hit at all, though? Don't all kids display "obviously defiant behavior"? Isn't that just part of growing up? You, the adult, are supposed to do better than she. Don't just react to her behavior. > Someone mentioned that screaming was their daughter's right. I think > there is merit to this idea, but when I want to sleep, I cannot > allow our daughter to scream on and on. Besides which, I really > think that she sometimes is crying out of meanness. Doesn't this tell you something? (You imply below you don't think kids are inherently "mean".) You think there is meanness in screaming in bed. Doesn't your child think there is meanness in your hitting her? What are her choices in this kind of situation? She can do exactly what you tell her meekly, or she can oppose you in the only way she currently knows. What will happen when she grows up? She'll have learned to do what she is told, or she'll learn more extreme ways of opposing you. Would you like either of those? > My wife was until recently a preschool teacher, and she is convinced > that one of the things that would have been most helpful for the > kids is an occasional spanking! Really, the things she told me would > make you want to spank the kids too -- like when they come to her and > kick her on the shins. If you knew my wife, you would know that she > is sinfully meek, so that I am sure she does not provoke such attacks. I agree all kids need firm discipline. This does not necessarily mean spanking, though. Again, adults have other ways of dealing with kids than resorting to physical punishment. We are not just bigger than they, are we? > I agree with the parent who said that discipline should be used > sparingly. For us, usually an explanation or a warning will be all > that is required. But (and this has been a surprise of sorts for me) > kids AREN'T always rational! And, I really agree with everyone who > mentioned that empty threats (of whatever nature) are damaging to > the parent-child relationship. > > My mind is still open though. I'd really like to hear about methods > of discipline that REALLY work as alternatives to spanking. I would > much prefer to remove that technique from my repertoire. I cannot help > but believe that children build up resentment somewhere after they > have been spanked -- or else that they think they are intrinsically > bad. Two good points here. The issue is control, not punishment. Don't lose control of your kids, or of yourself. What kind of people so you want your children to become? It's easy to do the simplest reaction that you think of first. If you think kids need to be hit every month or two to acquiesce to your rules, you will be more likely to spank. I think that kids are eager to please their parents, when they know what to do. They sometimes don't think about what they are doing. They sometimes test the limits of the rules. They sometimes think only of themselves. Our most frequent response is a request to be more civilized, i.e., to think of the effects of their actions on the others around them. Our most frequent punishment is quick, but short, deprivation of whatever seems to be the immediate cause of the problem. Lastly, we send them to their rooms for a fixed length of time - 10 minutes, or "until you stop <whatever>". It really never occurs to me to hit my kids. > Charlie Perkins, IBM T.J. Watson Research > philabs!v1!charliep, perk%YKTVMX.BITNET@berkeley, perk.yktvmx.ibm@csnet-relay Not hopeful, Allen -- Allen Matsumoto ITT Adv. Tech. Center, Stratford, CT 06497 203-385-7218 (decvax!ittvax!allenm)
greg@olivej.UUCP (Greg Paley) (01/09/85)
I thought Ed Turner's article on discipline was excellent. The point about the necessity of being consistent cannot be overemphasized. Some of the worst brats I've seen (excuse the expression, but I don't know any other way to put it) have been the result of parents who laugh at a particular offense at one moment and heavily punish the same thing at another, or, alternately, who continually spout a stream of empty threats. I'm not going to go into the argument of whether or not spanking is an effective means of discipline (we do it, but it takes a major offense, potentially harmful either to the child himself or someone else, to warrant it) but I have no hesitation in saying that if you threaten to spank and then, despite this, the child persists in whatever he shouldn't be doing, you have to go ahead and carry out the threat. Otherwise the child loses all respect for you and your authority and, worse, loses his self respect since it will appear that his actions have no particular importance one way or the other. - Greg Paley
earl@tymix.UUCP (A. Christie Earl) (01/09/85)
> > My mind is still open though. I'd really like to hear about methods > of discipline that REALLY work as alternatives to spanking. I would > much prefer to remove that technique from my repertoire. I cannot help > but believe that children build up resentment somewhere after they > have been spanked -- or else that they think they are intrinsically > bad. > > Charlie Perkins, IBM T.J. Watson Research I have a daughter who just turned 12. Jennifer is very bright and is a child who ALWAYS tests authority. (I believe her motto in life must be 'QUESTION AUTHORITY') I've tried many ways of discipline, including spanking (I HATE spanking) I've had the best results with consistancy (teachers, etc, using the same methods), Timeout methods, Reward System and Natural consequences. I agree that discipline should be used sparingly. I also believe that results are best if you can discipline without alot of drama and emotion. Do it, get it over with, and don't dwell on it. I've seen people ruin a kids whole day because of spilled milk at the breakfast table. Jennifer was once in an afterschool care program that had the best discipline system I've ever seen, and a quite effective one. If you misbehaved: first occurance: Name on the board second thru fourth occurance: checkmark and 5 minutes timeout fifth occurance: Note home to parents Those are per day occurances, and I'd imagine getting checkmarks is a pretty horrible thing. The kids all know the rules beforehand and know exactly what to expect. They are always carried out. On the other hand, they would go around and give kids warm fuzzies for just doing what they were supposed to be doing. Children quietly coloring during coloring time would be given a 'raffle ticket' with their name on it. I think you get an extra one for not having you name on the board at the end of the day. Then I believe there would be a weekly raffle of several prizes. The more you'd been good, the better your chances of winning things like a face painting, or having your polaroid picture taken, or some little thing like that. Seems to me that you could also save up your tickets over a week and 'buy' priviliges. This program was used more for the Preschool thru Third grade ages, although I believe it could be easily modified for use with the younger ones. Jennifer is now doing quite well. Whether she outgrew the problems, or she realized that being 'good' is in her best interest, I don't know. But I believe these methods (especially timeout) helped us over the rough spots. Children want to know what the limits and boundries are. As a parent prividing those limits is the loving thing to do. Two year olds are defiant, and I agree, parents don't live by the same rules. You don't have to be buddies, but be loving and show your love to your children. Well, I hope that helps. -- -Christie Earl {...sun!ios ...hplabs|fortune!oliveb}!tymix!earl 186,000 miles per second. It's not just a good idea... It's the law!!
jug@whuxlm.UUCP (Grauman Joseph) (01/09/85)
Many of the responses had proposals on disciplining a child who didn't want to go to sleep at bedtime. It is important, however, to try to identify the cause or source of such behavior which appears to be quite common. In reading your posting I found two possible causes. First, you mentioned that when you send your child to her room as punishment. This makes her room an undesirable or bad place to be - to take it to an extreme example, like jail. Secondly, you mentioned that in order to get her to stay in her room at bedtime you allow her to engage in play as long as she remained in bed. This defeats the purpose of being in the room in the first place - to go to sleep. It might also be wise to consider keeping a child in the crib (with the sides raised) until they are older. I am happy to say that we never had such problems with our 2 children since we followed what I said in this paragraph. When you examine young children's behavior problems closely you will find that in most cases they can be traced to the way their parents dealt with them initially. Not everyone knows what to do in every possible situation, but consistency, purpose, and firmness can go a long way toward correcting bevior problems early. Joe Grauman AT&T-Bell Labs whuxg!jug or whuxlm!jug
mark@tove.UUCP (Mark Weiser) (01/12/85)
In article <194@masscomp.UUCP> carlton@masscomp.UUCP (Alana Hommel) writes: >... >Emotionally, it is far more >harmful for both _you_ and the child to have her sit and scream then to have >her spanked. >... The tone of the spanking discussion has been sounding good to me: "Spanking should be rare, there are other forms of discipline just as good, no physical abuse." It sounds like we are all pretty good parents. But the above statement stopped me cold. If there is some actual evidence for it I'd like to hear it. I think exactly the opposite--it is best if I can stand to be with my children while she sits and screams at bedtime. Sometimes I am just not up to that, and I do something to stop the screaming (usually read a story or do some other distracting activity). But I don't feel as good after that, and neither does she. When our children show emotions of any kind they encouraged to (a) express that emotion non-destructively, and (b) not act on the emotion but rather wait for calmness to decide what to do. Similarly we do not respond to the emotional outburst as if it is a demand for anything, but simply as an expression that says: "I feel X", where X is sad, or mad, or whatever. Sometimes it can be hard to feel SO MAD or SO SAD all alone, so we will sit with her (we have two girls) while the outburst finishes (sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes 60 minutes). But no special attention is given because there happens to be a lot of emotion, and we try for lots of attention to them at other times. -- Spoken: Mark Weiser ARPA: mark@maryland Phone: +1-301-454-7817 CSNet: mark@umcp-cs UUCP: {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!mark USPS: Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
peter@tmq.UUCP (Life gets very Weird) (01/13/85)
I notice that a common thread in this discussion is "Hyperactivity" or "Not wanting to sleep". Drugs and chemicals found in the diet of most children (sugar, caffeine, food dyes, etc.) will cause radical mood swings and will upset a child's sleeping cycle. After spending most of my childhood addicted to Twinkies, Coca-cola, etc. I was considered "Hyperactive" and fed a variety of amphetamines, tranquilizers, etc. to control it. (Dad was one of those internal medicine types who had a strong faith in chemotherapy). I wonder how different my relationship with the world as a kid would of been had I not been out of my mind on a rainbow of upper/downers of various forms. Anyway, my sister prohibits her children from eating processed foods. This seems to keep them a lot calmer. They have sweet, tractable dispostions, free from temper tantrums, screaming fits, etc. She *rarely* has to spank them, even her 2 and 4 year old boys. Hitting a kid seems to be a last resort to be used only when there is a total breakdown in communication with them. I would say when faced with a problem with your kids, treat the cause, not the symptom. P.S: I would appreciate hearing via mail from people who were hyperactive children on drugs, or who are parents of one -- Peter Kerrigan -- ..!ihnp4!tmq!peter
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (01/15/85)
> Your other problem seems to be that you are trying to reason with > a two year old. This only works in favor of the child! > An example: > Me: Do good boys do XXXXX? > Adam: No. > Me: Did you do XXXXX? > Adam: Yes. > Me: Are you a good boy? > Adam: Yes. This is a good example of why exclusive reason/rationality with a child doesn't work. Sure, it's nice to be able to explain to the child why to do something, and then have him do it. But their logic isn't ours! "You mean Daddy can buy all the lollipops he wants to, and he doesn't buy any?" Daddy must be nuts, right? And when they grow up, they aren't always going to be given a logical reason why they should do such-and-such anyway. Best to learn that sometimes you just have to do it. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois | "And the streets shall be full of boys and girls playing --+-- in the streets thereof..." | Zechariah 8:5 |
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (01/15/85)
> To make my position explicit, I am opposed to spanking. I don't believe > spanking is good for raising children. I don't see how it could avoid > encouraging violence. The occasional use of spanking must be tempered > with copious amounts of love (if violence has to be resorted to at all). > ... > > This makes sense to me. What about the bad associations of being hit at > all, though? ... > > Doesn't this tell you something? (You imply below you don't think kids > are inherently "mean".) You think there is meanness in screaming in bed. > Doesn't your child think there is meanness in your hitting her? What > are her choices in this kind of situation? She can do exactly what you > tell her meekly, or she can oppose you in the only way she currently > knows. What will happen when she grows up? She'll have learned to do > what she is told, or she'll learn more extreme ways of opposing you. > Would you like either of those? You're not being mean by spanking, though. At least, I hope not! If we spank just because we're mad, then the child knows that. But we need not do so, and indeed ought not to do so. If a child hits me, it's because of anger (almost always). I am not going to spank for that reason, but for the *child's* welfare. I do not believe this causes resentment, because kids aren't dumb, they'll sense why they're being disciplined (although it's definitely best to explain it explicitly as well, of course). Spanking != violence. (can be, but that's abuse, not discipline) -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois | "And the streets shall be full of boys and girls playing --+-- in the streets thereof..." | Zechariah 8:5 |
robbin@spp3.UUCP (01/15/85)
[]
I haven't gotten to the age of reason but my sister has a son 5 and her
husband (second, therefore not the boys father) shares in the discipline.
He does not believe in spanking but Jason does push too far. His way of
dealing with it, which I have not seen or hear of, is to have Jason get on
his knees on the floor and hold his hands out straight for some length of
time until he says he is sorry or won't do whatever again.
I thought this was an interesting way of dealing with the punishment.
Just wanted to post for anyone interested.
Robbin Brahms
{ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!spp1!spp3!robbingeoff@desint.UUCP (Geoff Kuenning) (01/17/85)
In article <110@spp3.UUCP> robbin@spp3.UUCP writes: >I haven't gotten to the age of reason but my sister has a son 5 and her >husband (second, therefore not the boys father) shares in the discipline. > >He does not believe in spanking but Jason does push too far. His way of >dealing with it, which I have not seen or hear of, is to have Jason get on >his knees on the floor and hold his hands out straight for some length of >time until he says he is sorry or won't do whatever again. Have you ever tried this position yourself? Especially for a child with partially-developed muscles, it becomes painful very quickly. In that sense, it is no different than spanking. But it's actually far worse than spanking, because it is slow, growing torture. Spanking is quick; it is a sudden and definite punishment that is over with. I think that this approach is quite cruel. I also feel that it is unfair, since you are basically torturing the child until he breaks, as opposed to delivering a swift (painful!) and fair consequence of misbehavior. But probably the worst aspect of the approach is that it teaches the child to be able to deal with the pain and endure it. I bet that the more your sister uses this technique, the longer Jason will be able to stand it. This is a route to uncontrollability. (Think about it: how would you go about teaching a child to be able to stand any punishment and still be willing to defy you? Gradually increasing dosages of pain are a very effective way). -- Geoff Kuenning ...!ihnp4!trwrb!desint!geoff
bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (01/17/85)
In article <ittvax.1587> allenm@ittvax.UUCP (Allen Matsumoto) writes: >... >To make my position explicit, I am opposed to spanking. I don't believe >spanking is good for raising children. I don't see how it could avoid >encouraging violence. The occasional use of spanking must be tempered >with copious amounts of love (if violence has to be resorted to at all). According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, violence is defined as "exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse." Now I would not suggest that there are occasions where parents become abusive in their treatment of children, however, I would not catagorize all types of physical discipline as violence. I believe there are appropriate times for spanking for the proper discipline of children. >It seems to me that anyone who thinks monthly is rare, must have a >frightening belief of what "normal spanking" would be. Obviously we >aren't talking about child abuse, but that's still a lot more spanking >than I would have imagined parents have to resort to. Am I completely >unrealistic in this? I don't think once a year would bother me (much), >but once a month? Why spank at all, even once a year, if you are so opposed to it? Obviously you don't spank with any well-thought-out intentions of changing the child's behavior. In your case it would seem to be both callous and capricious. -- Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl
janr@tekecs.UUCP (Jan Rowell) (01/18/85)
> He does not believe in spanking but Jason does push too far. His way of > dealing with it, which I have not seen or hear of, is to have Jason get on > his knees on the floor and hold his hands out straight for some length of > time until he says he is sorry or won't do whatever again. > Am I weird? This one really gives me the creeps. I'd much rather see an emphasis on discipline/guiding children that doesn't focus so much on punishment and displays of power (yours over theirs). I'm not saying that power isn't an issue (esp with 2 year olds), but an emphasis on power obscures all the more benevolent aspects of discipline. A book on this topic that I liked when I read it a few years ago is "Without Spanking or Spoiling." It's practical and fairly eclectic.
mostek@ihnp4.UUCP (James Mostek) (01/18/85)
My parents made us kneel in a corner facing the corner when we were bad.
Spanking occurred when we did something very very wrong (i.e. covered the
porch with mommy's cold cream), maybe a couple times a year.
The kneeling made you think about what you just did and feel pretty bad
about upsetting your parents.
Anyway, I've followed the same basic concept with my kids (after they reached
about 3 or 4).
When they disobey or do something wrong, they are instructed to sit in a
chair or on the floor for a stretch of time (usually 5 or 10 minutes).
Their instructions are to sit still and make no noises.
If they disobey, the time is increased (depending on the infraction) usually
around 5 to 10 minutes extra.
At the end of the silent period, they must appologize.
This discipline usually works, but there are occasions when I do spank.
I try to be extremely loving with the children.
Lots of hugs and kisses and the like.
This is the best discipline.
It creates an atmosphere where the kids don't test responsiblity or
try to aggravate. Rather, they go out of their way to try to make us happy.
Don't get me wrong, our home life has problems like most.
We loose tempers, aren't always patient, ...
But, we keep trying to improve.
Parents aren't always "good" (they loose tempers, don't listen to
their children, and on some very infrequent occasions deserve spankings).
Parenting is one of the toughest careers around, especially when it's done
part-part-time.
--
James Mostek, Bell Labs @ Naperville, ihnp4!mostekmark@tove.UUCP (Mark Weiser) (01/20/85)
In article <110@spp3.UUCP> robbin@spp3.UUCP writes: >He does not believe in spanking but Jason does push too far. Who says? This is commonly what the people in power say of the people out of power. The Nazi's were constantly saying of the Jews in the 30's that "they push too far". When I here someone say that about anyone, it just means to me that they have stopped thinking and started reacting. >His way of >dealing with it, which I have not seen or hear of, is to have Jason get on >his knees on the floor and hold his hands out straight for some length of >time until he says he is sorry or won't do whatever again. This sounds as bad, or worse, than spanking to me. Sheesh, the tortures that people put other people through. -- Spoken: Mark Weiser ARPA: mark@maryland Phone: +1-301-454-7817 CSNet: mark@umcp-cs UUCP: {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!mark USPS: Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
susan@vaxwaller.UUCP (Susan Finkelman) (01/21/85)
*Mothering* magazine has several articles on discipline without spanking in their current issue.
allenm@ittvax.UUCP (Allen Matsumoto) (01/21/85)
[In-reply-to: your article <1899@burdvax.UUCP>] Sorry if I used the wrong word. If you're going to quibble about the particular word "violence" as defined in your dictionary, you're bound to miss the point of the article. What is the proper word for "exertion of physical force NOT to injure or abuse"? (Or didn't you have any idea of what I meant?) > In article <ittvax.1587> allenm@ittvax.UUCP (Allen Matsumoto) writes: > >... > >To make my position explicit, I am opposed to spanking. I don't believe > >spanking is good for raising children. I don't see how it could avoid > >encouraging violence. The occasional use of spanking must be tempered > >with copious amounts of love (if violence has to be resorted to at all). > > According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, violence is defined as > "exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse." Now I would not > suggest that there are occasions where parents become abusive in their > treatment of children, however, I would not catagorize all types of > physical discipline as violence. I believe there are appropriate times for > spanking for the proper discipline of children. About the following, I'm sure you're being unfair, if you can read. (Can you read?) Obviously you don't read "with any well-thought-out intentions" of understanding the article. I said in my original article that I don't spank, I don't believe in spanking, and I don't like spanking. Is that clear now? > >It seems to me that anyone who thinks monthly is rare, must have a > >frightening belief of what "normal spanking" would be. Obviously we > >aren't talking about child abuse, but that's still a lot more spanking > >than I would have imagined parents have to resort to. Am I completely > >unrealistic in this? I don't think once a year would bother me (much), > >but once a month? > > Why spank at all, even once a year, if you are so opposed to it? Obviously > you don't spank with any well-thought-out intentions of changing the > child's behavior. In your case it would seem to be both callous and > capricious. > > Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. > ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl What is the point of deliberately misinterpreting my article? Does it make you feel better to challenge other people's postings? Do you like "correcting" people enough to go out of your way to mis-read them? You bet I'm defensive when unfairly attacked! -- Allen Matsumoto ITT Adv. Tech. Center, Stratford, CT 06497 203-385-7218 (decvax!ittvax!allenm) <generic disclaimer>: Any opinions expressed are my opinions.