andrew@orca.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) (03/05/85)
There is an interesting serendipity between two articles recently
posted to net.kids. Excerpts follow:
From <285@packard.UUCP>:
"We are contemplating a trip to San Francisco, and would like
some inout from parents experienced in this area ... Is it wise
(as has been recommended by others) to lie about the childs age
in order to pay no fare for him?"
From <812@decwrl.UUCP>:
"How to you teach respect for the truth? For one thing, by
being truthful ..."
I suggest that there are advantages to telling the truth about the San
Francisco-bound child's age beyond the question of whether the kid
needs a seat to themself.
-- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP]
(orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA]fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (03/06/85)
> >From <285@packard.UUCP>: > > "We are contemplating a trip to San Francisco, and would like > some inout from parents experienced in this area ... Is it wise > (as has been recommended by others) to lie about the childs age > in order to pay no fare for him?" > >From <812@decwrl.UUCP>: > > "How to you teach respect for the truth? For one thing, by > being truthful ..." > In article <orca.1381> andrew@orca.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) writes: > I suggest that there are advantages to telling the truth about the San > Francisco-bound child's age beyond the question of whether the kid > needs a seat to themself. > We don't want to teach our kids to be fanatics about telling the truth. After all, sometimes lying is very convenient. The trick is teaching the child to tell the truth to us, the parents, not that the child should necessarily tell the truth to everybody else all the time. Frank Silbermann University of North Carolina
rwh@aesat.UUCP (Russ Herman) (03/10/85)
> We don't want to teach our kids to be fanatics about telling the truth. > After all, sometimes lying is very convenient. The trick is teaching > the child to tell the truth to us, the parents, not that the child > should necessarily tell the truth to everybody else all the time. > > Frank Silbermann > University of North Carolina > unc!fsks You, sir, are in for some unpleasant surprises. If your children see you lying when convenient, you can be certain they will do the same. Except it will be when THEY think it is convenient, not when YOU do. And you can be equally certain that they will initially overestimate their abilities to get away with it, which potentially can get them into DEEP TROUBLE. Now, when kids are older, they can develop judgment around not blurting out hurtful (to themselves or others) truths unnecessarily. But if you look at developmental stages (viz. Piaget's _Moral Judgment of the Child_), you will see that kids at first work only in clear-cut absolutes. So to the child, until around age 10 (or more), lying is either OK, or not OK. There's no such thing as a grey area. -- ______ Russ Herman / \ {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!rwh @( ? ? )@ ( || ) The opinions above are strictly personal, and ( \__/ ) do not reflect those of my employer (or even \____/ possibly myself an hour from now.)
hedrick@topaz.ARPA (Chuck Hedrick) (03/10/85)
There are two separate, but related issues here: (1) is it appropriate to lie about your age to save money; (2) if it is, is doing so in front of your kid going to cause an extra problem. If believe that the answers to these questions are, repectively no and yes. If you are seriously interested in the ethics of truth, there are several books by Sisela Bok. The first has some obvious title like "Lying". The author is a philosopher, with experience working with doctors, lawyers, etc., on the ethical implications of their professions. After a bit of experience at this, it becomes very clear that no one wants to be lied to, but everyone believes that their particular profession has a privileged position which means that it does not always owe the truth to the rest of the world. She analyses the consequences of this. They are serious and pervasive. Among them: you can never trust what anyone says to you if there is any chance that he thinks he is in one of these privileged groups. Politicians believe that they know best, and so they do not tell you the full probable consequences of the war they are engaged in. Doctors are sure that they should decide what treatment is appropriate, even if it bankrupts you and your family. Once people find out what is going on (and they always do), they end up feeling manipulated. What is in fact just what has happened. Her conclusion is that we must think of lying as an act of violence. Indeed in some ways it is more insidious and therefore more dangerous than violence. Thus we should apply to it the same requirements that we would for using violence. It is very hard to imagine that your situation would justify lying. Now, as to the effect on the child. It is true that parents have a special role. You may think that it is reasonable for you to try to teach the child that he/she owes the truth to you, but not to the rest of the world. However a child is a human being, and as such participates in many different relationships, including those with friends and teachers. Most of the relationships in which a child is engaged are ones in which truth is important, and in which there are serious temptations for a child to lie. I think it very unlikely that you will be able to make a distinction that will not also result in lying to teachers, friends, and even you, which doing so seems to be convenient. You also have to consider whether your child is going to wonder what you are going to do when lying to him or her would save you money.
jay@unm-la.UUCP (03/12/85)
> We don't want to teach our kids to be fanatics about telling the truth. > After all, sometimes lying is very convenient. The trick is teaching ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!! > the child to tell the truth to us, the parents, not that the child ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > should necessarily tell the truth to everybody else all the time. > WOW! GADZOOKS!! choke, gurgle. Yeah, that's a trick alright, sho 'nuff. -- Jay Plett {{ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax, lanl}!unm-la!jay
gv@hou2e.UUCP (G.VANNUCCI) (03/14/85)
Frank Silbermann writes: > We don't want to teach our kids to be fanatics about telling the truth. > After all, sometimes lying is very convenient. The trick is teaching > the child to tell the truth to us, the parents, not that the child > should necessarily tell the truth to everybody else all the time. Yes !! Lying is sometimes very "convenient" !! So are a lot of other actions that are morally wrong. If you teach your children that ethical principles are there just ot be disregarded when convenient, well... why teach them at all. In my opinion it is very important to teach your children that you should do what you think is right, even (and especially) when it is inconvenient. As a matter of fact I think that *all* people, children and adults alike, should follow that code of behavior. I also find it peculiarly incongruous to try to teach kids to lie when convenient but not to lie to their parents, even when convenient. I think Mr. Silbermannn may be in for some surprises when his kids grow up, if that is his strategy. G. Vannucci, AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel