charliep@polaris.UUCP (Charlie Perkins) (06/25/85)
I have been recently presented with an urgent need to discover whether nudism causes any adverse effects on children. I have read the book, "The Naked Child" by Dennis Smith (I think that's his name), but anecdotal evidence is not sufficient. I am personally biased to believe that there are not any such effects (on the contrary -- I think that if there are any effects, they are very positive). But, I am seriously interested in any relevant information. Please note that I am NOT specifically requesting information about sex, legalities, religion, or subjective experience. I believe that these topics, while often connected with nudism in interesting ways, are not centrally important to this issue. For example, a story of nudist parents who had incestuous relations with their children would, to me, be sad but inconclusive; but a pointer to a study showing that children of nudist parents were more likely to end up (well-adjusted, or divorced, or overachievers, or whatever...) would be of interest. Please mail any replies to me directly; I will gladly summarize any responses and post them to the net later. Thanks for any help.
itkin@luke.UUCP (Steven List) (07/09/85)
In article <219@cuuxa.UUCP> frye@cuuxa.UUCP (frye) writes: >This is in responce to Charlie Perkins' posting... >My personal belief is this: Don't let a child see >anything he/she will have questions about regarding sex 'til >such a time as the child can ask those questions an under- >stand the answers. > >I don't believe in creating questions in a child intention- >ally unless they can ask them and get an answer. I have some trouble with this attitude. Since I've already posted my feelings on the subject of nudity and children, I won't rehash the whole thing except to say that there are no rules against it in our house. The article written by frye implies that being naked in front of a child would create a question. Why? Nudity is natural. A child sees him/herself and his/her siblings nude. Also friends. Usually, if the child and parent are involved in any kind of sports activities (like swimming) the child will have been exposed to other adults and children in a locker room or such. Why go to the trouble of hiding it? The painful implication that nudity goes hand-in-hand with sex is the problem, and that is in the mind of the adults, not the children. When a child asks "What is that?", I answer. If it's my penis, that's what I say. The same goes for any other organ. They have them, so why shouldn't we? I fear that the attitude that frye (and others) have expressed is the cause of too much repression and confusion. That attitude causes the child to wonder "What are they hiding? It must be pretty important for them to work so hard at it! I better find out and then keep it a secret that I know what it is.". THAT scares me. I'm sure that children develop in a healthy fashion from both kinds of homes. I prefer, however, to avoid hiding things from my children rather than create unhealthy questions. -- *** * Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA * Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm" * {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!steven ***
frye@cuuxa.UUCP (frye) (07/09/85)
This is in responce to Charlie Perkins' posting requesting information on nudity and its affects on kids. All I know on the subject I read from Doctor Spock. I believe he tends to overdramatize the situation a little. (He doesn't believe in exposing kids to nude adults at all. Ever.) He says that the only nudity a child should be exposed to is other nude children. My personal belief is this: Don't let a child see anything he/she will have questions about regarding sex 'til such a time as the child can ask those questions an under- stand the answers. Here's something I'll throw in just for humor value. When I was about "tricycle motor" size many women wore slacks that zipped and buttoned at the side. Now that made me a little curious since I unzipped in front to go to the can. How in the heck did they build women anyway? Add to that the fact that some of those slacks zip up on the left and some on the right... I finally asked my dad. He told me women weren't built like us guys and weren't supposed to be. He said that it didn't matter where the zipper was just so long as they could get the pants down. Some even close up in the back. He told me he'd explain more when I was a little older and more apt to understand. I ended up learning in other ways (books, friends, the usual) and got him off the hook. I look back on these wonderings with a bit of humor now but, back then I was scratching my head and wondering what was going on. Now back to the question. I am no authority on the subject, I just believe in the KISS theory. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) I don't believe in creating questions in a child intention- ally unless they can ask them and get an answer. Thanks for indulging my ramblings, T. R. Frye
collinge@uvicctr.UUCP (Doug Collinge) (07/10/85)
I think you have to really watch it with respect to "not giving them the answers until they ask the questions". What may happen is that sex topics become a kind of "black hole". Sure, the kid gets the answers when he asks the questions but he can't help noticing that no-one ever brings up the topic of the various sex organs except him. If you developed a model of the human body from what my own parents talked about with me the legs would join at about the level of the navel. Kids imitate their parents, as you know, and may end up just never talking about it either, at least at home. I have a neighbour who uses that philosophy with her eight-year-old daughter - and guess what? The kid is just dying to know all about sex but can't ask her mother because she knows that all those things are not topics of regular discussion in her house. The mother doesn't actually have much time left since around here kids know it all from various unreliable sources by the age of ten. So don't worry about telling them things they can't understand - much of what they see and hear in a day is incomprehensible to them. If they can't understand it they will just get bored and leave. -- Doug Collinge School of Music, University of Victoria, PO Box 1700, Victoria, B.C., Canada, V8W 2Y2 decvax!nrl-css!uvicctr!collinge decvax!uw-beaver!uvicctr!collinge ubc-vision!uvicctr!collinge
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (07/14/85)
In article <219@cuuxa.UUCP> frye@cuuxa.UUCP (frye) writes: >This is in responce to Charlie Perkins' posting... >My personal belief is this: Don't let a child see >anything he/she will have questions about regarding sex 'til >such a time as the child can ask those questions an under- >stand the answers. > >I don't believe in creating questions in a child intention- >ally unless they can ask them and get an answer. Well, unlike many people of my generation, I saw my parents naked when I was a child. Here's what I remember of the whole thing: It was neat to look at my parents. I liked looking at my mother's breasts, and I was curious about my father's genitals. I would have liked to take a closer look, but I never did because I was too shy and felt it would have embarrassed him. As far as I knew, I was the only one among my friends who got to see such a sight. I considered the others deprived. Once, one of my friends was very excited because she had managed to catch a glimpse of her mother without underwear. I remember thinking she was quite perverted to get so excited about seeing her mother naked (other people, ok, that was exciting, but one's *mother*! give me a break!) My friends knew that I had seen my parents naked, but they never asked what I had seen. These kind of things were for family consumption (no pun) only. As a result of seeing my parents naked, I asked ONE question, it was about why my mother was bleeding like that (I was rightly worried). I was confused by the answer, not because I was too young (7-8) to grasp its meaning, but because it was a stupid answer that didn't make sense (something like "mommy's bleeding because she's not going to have a baby"). I did ask other questions at other times, but never did get satisfying answers. My parents were ahead of their time in that they didn't hide their nakedness, but they were still uncomfortable when it came to talking about sex. They answered all my questions in what they thought was the best way: euphemisms about seeds and plants. I knew where things were located, but not how they worked and it confused the hell out of me. But this is not because I saw them naked, but simply because, like most parents then, they weren't very good at explaining these things. I did know a lot more about sex (actually "where babies come from" was a much more interesting topic then) than most of my friends who were at the cabbage patch level (literally!). I also had one friend whose parents bought her one of these books for children at puberty, you know the ones like "the miracle of birth" where they talk about cats and dogs having kittens or puppies and then mommies and daddies getting married because they love each other and then "the man's penis entering the woman's vagina" and presto, little cells multiplying and drawings of babies going out head first or twins sharing one uterus. That clarified a few things, but not enough. I certainly don't think that seeing my parents naked troubled me in any way (no matter what some male netters might think). What bothered me was the embarrassment with which my parents answered some of my questions. When they weren't embarrassed, they did a much better job of it. When I asked my mother what a "homosexual" was, she wasn't too involved in the question so she answered something like "oh, it's someone who loves someone of the same sex". I asked her for clarification, like, how could they do such a thing and she just replied "I don't know, they do, it's like that". That was very clear and all I wanted to know. Anyway, to go back to the topic; If it isn't clear by now, I think that based from my own experience, the problem doesn't lie in children having too many unanswerable questions, but in parents who don't know how to answer their children's questions. My opinion is that the sooner the parents start answering questions, the more accustomed they will get to answering them appropriately. I think that what I'd do if I was a parent would be to give very short and precise answers to the questions asked and just make sure that the child knows that they can ask more if they want to know more. -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
itkin@luke.UUCP (Steven List) (07/27/85)
Since I've already responded to frye's article (I DISAGREE VEHEMENTLY), I'm responding to sophie's followup based on the surprise I found at the end of her article. In article <1294@mnetor.UUCP> sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) writes: >In article <219@cuuxa.UUCP> frye@cuuxa.UUCP (frye) writes: >>My personal belief is this: Don't let a child see >>anything he/she will have questions about regarding sex 'til >>such a time as the child can ask those questions an under- >>stand the answers. >> >>I don't believe in creating questions in a child intention- >>ally unless they can ask them and get an answer. > >Well, unlike many people of my generation, I saw my parents naked >when I was a child. Here's what I remember of the whole thing: >It was neat to look at my parents. [a bunch more stuff that I enjoyed and mostly agree with] >My opinion is that the sooner the >parents start answering questions, the more accustomed they will get to >answering them appropriately. I think that what I'd do if I was a parent ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >would be to give very short and precise answers to the questions asked >and just make sure that the child knows that they can ask more if they >want to know more. First - this kind of thinking and clarity from a nonparent is WONDERFUL. Thank you sophie. Second - I agree. This is well put. We have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. They both ask questions (thank god) and test my wife and me to our limits. The point about "short and precise answers" is an excellent one. I think that the answer should deal with the question, but not go on too far. If the child is still curious (or if the answer spurs another question), he/she should be encouraged to ask. But the child should be encouraged to THINK as well as ask. The short but complete answer achieves this admirably. Again, thanks sophie. -- *** * Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA * Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm" * {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin ***