martin@cornell.UUCP (Susan Martin) (07/29/85)
I have recently learned that I'm going to be a mother!
I'm 28, single, and a lowly secretary. Although I like to think I have
some emotional support from my SO, we currently live apart (my doing), and
he doesn't contribute anything financially.
I'm really scared to death. Since my salary is not that great at all,
I am finding it difficult figuring out how I can possibily afford this!
I have the support of my family and friends, all of whom are contributing
just about everything I'll need to get started.
Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what
to do and how to bring up my child. On the other hand, if I don't marry him,
he'll be under no legal obligation to help out, but also won't be able to tell
me how to do things.
I would never be able to have an abortion at this point in my life, nor
would I give the child away to some needy couple. The only good thing about
all this is the fact that Ithaca, NY seems to be as good a place as any to
bring up the child as a single parent with occasional help from the father.
I am not really seeking advice, but would accept it if it were offered.
I just really wanted to express these thoughts on the net, and to let you
know that I now have a legitimate reason (if not a legitimite child!) for
reading this newsgroup!
Upstate New Yorkishly yours,
Susan A. Martin
a.k.a. SAMandrew@orca.UUCP (Andrew Klossner) (07/30/85)
[]
"... if I marry the baby's father ... On the other hand, if I
don't marry him, he'll be under no legal obligation to help out
..."
In most states, the father is legally obligated to help pay for the
child, regardless of marital status. To enforce this, you have to file
a paternity suit and prove that he is the father. Check with your
attorney.
-=- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP]
(orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA]cjdb@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Charles Blair) (07/31/85)
> Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what >to do and how to bring up my child. On the other hand, if I don't marry him, >he'll be under no legal obligation to help out, but also won't be able to >tell me how to do things. Since you're open to advice (and I do think the issue is of general interest) here goes. Tell *me* what to do? *My* child? My wife doesn't tell me what to do, nor do I tell her what to do, since we consider our child to be just that, *our* child. Instead, we try to isolate potential areas of conflict in our child-rearing philosophies and try to resolve them in advance of our having to apply them. I think if you began with the idea that the child is something to be shared, and not monopolized, you might have a way out of the dilemma you seem to have set yourself at the start. In any case, congratulations!
tw8023@pyuxii.UUCP (T Wheeler) (07/31/85)
Congratulations SAM- Two points: First, there is no such thing as a lowly secretary. Secretaries are the movers and shakers of the business world. Without them, chaos would rein. Think positive. Second, try thinking of the child as "our" child. After all, unless it is born with a halo, there were two of you involved. Don't write the father off yet. Impending parenthood can do wonders for relationships (in most cases). Good luck T. C. Wheeler
dwl10@amdahl.UUCP (Dave Lowrey) (07/31/85)
> > I have recently learned that I'm going to be a mother! > I'm 28, single, and a lowly secretary. Although I like to think I have > some emotional support from my SO, we currently live apart (my doing), and > he doesn't contribute anything financially. > > I would never be able to have an abortion at this point in my life, nor > would I give the child away to some needy couple. The only good thing about > all this is the fact that Ithaca, NY seems to be as good a place as any to > bring up the child as a single parent with occasional help from the father. > Just remember that not having an abortion or not puting the child up for adoption isn't just YOUR decision. You are also making the decision for the child to be. Will you be able to give the child everything he/she needs? Lots of love definately helps, but it sure isn't everything. Are you willing to face up to the extreme changes in lifestyles that raising children demands? Talk to people who have had childern. Try to get a feel for what parenthood is like, remembering that you will be single and economically disadvantaged. I am not trying to flame you, or pass judgement. I just want to make sure you have considered all of the possibilities. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Lowrey "To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question.... ....or is it?" ...!(<sun,cbosgd,ihnp4}!amdahl!dwl10 [ The opinions expressed <may> be those of the author and not necessarily those of his most eminent employer. ]
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (08/01/85)
In article <3484@cornell.UUCP> martin@cornell.UUCP (Susan Martin) writes: > > I have recently learned that I'm going to be a mother! Congratulations!! >I'm 28, single, and a lowly secretary. Although I like to think I have >some emotional support from my SO, we currently live apart (my doing), and >he doesn't contribute anything financially. > > I'm really scared to death. >Since my salary is not that great at all, >I am finding it difficult figuring out how I can possibily afford this! >I have the support of my family and friends, all of whom are contributing >just about everything I'll need to get started. > > Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what >to do and how to bring up my child. A husband does not have the right to tell his wife what to do or how to bring up their child! Activites which effect both parents and/or the children can be resolved by discussion and compromise. If either person believes they have a right to tell the other what to do, or refuses to discuss or compromise when differences arise, then the marriage will have problems. >On the other hand, if I don't marry him, >he'll be under no legal obligation to help out, but also won't be able to tell >me how to do things. You may want to check with a lawyer on that one (if it is important to you). I think, at least in some states, if a man admits he is the father, or maybe if he can't prove he is not(?), he will have to help support the child. > > I would never be able to have an abortion at this point in my life, nor >would I give the child away to some needy couple. The only good thing about >all this is the fact that Ithaca, NY seems to be as good a place as any to >bring up the child as a single parent with occasional help from the father. > > I am not really seeking advice, but would accept it if it were offered. >I just really wanted to express these thoughts on the net, and to let you >know that I now have a legitimate reason (if not a legitimite child!) for >reading this newsgroup! > > >Upstate New Yorkishly yours, > >Susan A. Martin >a.k.a. SAM -- PKW hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur
itkin@luke.UUCP (Steven List) (08/02/85)
In article <3484@cornell.UUCP> martin@cornell.UUCP (Susan Martin) writes: > I have recently learned that I'm going to be a mother! >I'm 28, single, and a lowly secretary. [...] > I'm really scared to death. Since my salary is not that great at all, >I am finding it difficult figuring out how I can possibily afford this! [...] > Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what >to do and how to bring up my child. On the other hand, if I don't marry him, >he'll be under no legal obligation to help out, but also won't be able to tell >me how to do things. Being the father of three (4 years, 2 years, and 10 days), I can appreciate the worries about affording "this". While I make a pretty decent salary, my wife only make about $300 a month. Thus, all five of us must survive on my salary (while buying half a house and paying off a brand new car). This last baby was not planned, and I had many of the same concerns when we found out. OTHER PARENTS, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG: I have always worried about how much it costs to raise a child. It always seems that it's not as bad as I feared. Even though our two older children are in preschool, most of the cost is for us big people. Food (babies don't cost ANYTHING if you can nurse) is most costly for people who eat more. Even with our son being allergic to wheat, milk, eggs, and chocolate and requiring some special foods, he doesn't cost too much. If you have a good support group (family and friends), clothes won't cost very much. Probably the worst is doctors (OB and Pediatrician). If you have good insurance, that won't be too bad. Find out NOW if you have well baby care. If not, plan on setting a little aside for the regular checkups. Also, for later on, vision and dental. Anyway, like I said, it always seems to cost LESS than I expect. You will probably need to plan for the initial doctor bills now. Even with good insurance, you will have to pay some of it. Try to find out how much and set it aside. Congratulations! Even unexpected blessings are blessings. And babies are the most incredible miracle. -- *** * Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA * Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm" * {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin ***
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (08/02/85)
> > Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what > to do and how to bring up my child. On the other hand, if I don't marry him, > he'll be under no legal obligation to help out, but also won't be able to tell > me how to do things. I believe that the father has a legal obligation to support the child even if you're not married. It's his child too, you know. It may be hard to get him to live up to this, but the obligation is there, nonetheless. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Probably the best thing to do is talk to the father, and see how he feels about helping out with child support. If he's a decent person, he'll do what he can. If he refuses, then you *really* know you don't want to marry him. Also, why do you assume that marrying him will give him the right to tell you what to do? A marriage should be a partnership. This means that, when you have to make a decision that effects both of you, you discuss it and come to a mutual agreement. That is my view of marriage. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
jmc@riccb.UUCP (Jeff McQuinn ) (08/02/85)
> Just remember that not having an abortion or not puting the child up for > adoption isn't just YOUR decision. You are also making the decision for > the child to be. > Let's also just remember that having an abortion will be the last decision made for that unborn child! Jeff McQuinn just VAXing around
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (08/02/85)
> Congratulations SAM- > Indeed, congratulations! > Two points: > > First, there is no such thing as a lowly secretary. Secretaries > are the movers and shakers of the business world. Without them, > chaos would rein. Think positive. > Well said! > Second, try thinking of the child as "our" child. After all, > unless it is born with a halo, there were two of you involved. > Don't write the father off yet. Impending parenthood can do > wonders for relationships (in most cases). > For a while.... that's the problem. As a member of a family who is either extremely fertile or does not believe in birth control, I have had the opportunity to watch six "forced" marriages evolve through the years. Only two of them are still intact after 10 years, one of which is pretty rocky, but the parents are staying together "for the children's sake". Once divorced, most of these people ended up being in more trouble than if they hadn't got married in the first place. Instead of being a single parent of one child, most of them ended up being single parents of two or three children. That was then. All of these stories are more than 10 years old, and so are most of the resulting children. Some are seriously fucked up, some not, some were but made it through, but most of them didn't have fun childhoods, watching their parents fight, beat each other up at times, divorce, remarry. I certainly think most of them would have been better off if their parents hadn't married, but even 10 years ago, there was a big taboo against single parents, so they might have been hurt by that anyway. I don't think there is this taboo anymore really. These days my family is as fertile as ever, but none of the people who have had "accidents" have opted for marriage. It's a bit too early to tell what will happen to the kids, but the adults seem much happier than the ones who were forced to marry did then, and that must count for something. I know that this is all anecdotal evidence, but I just wanted to point out that it is not obvious that you'd be better off marrying someone you don't like, especially if you will have other people helping you out. If you didn't really want to be together before, another third person will not make you like each other more. In the contrary, it (for lack of knowledge of whether it is a she or a he) might be another source of discord. It is also not fair to expect a child to be responsible for the happiness of their parents. Children don't need to start off their lives with such big responsibilities which are really beyond their control anyway. > Good luck > T. C. Wheeler Oh yes, good luck. Please let us know how things turn out. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (08/05/85)
> In article <3484@cornell.UUCP> martin@cornell.UUCP (Susan Martin) writes: > > Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what > >to do and how to bring up my child. Well, you haven't really told us why you think this would be so bad (you don't have to if you don't want). I think it might probably be a good idea to have more than one person participating in the raising of a child, but if the second person is only going to participate negatively, then the child would probably be better off without him. I guess you know your situation better than we do... -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (08/05/85)
> > Just remember that not having an abortion or not puting the child up for > > adoption isn't just YOUR decision. You are also making the decision for > > the child to be. > > Let's also just remember that having an abortion will be the last decision > made for that unborn child! > > Jeff McQuinn just VAXing around LET'S NOT TURN THIS DISCUSSION INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT ABORTION!!!!!! Susan can read net.abortion if she wants to hear netters' opinions on that matter. -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
debbiem@rruxe.UUCP (D. McBurnett) (08/05/85)
Re: the cost of kids -- it is true that small children cost a lot less than most of us fear they will. HOWEVER, children get EXPENSIVE as they get older. There was a good article in the April 1983 issue of Changing Times magazine on "Facing up to the high cost of kids". Cost begin to rise dramatically when children reach around age 9 and continue to INCREASE yearly on a straight line basis. By the time a child is in high school, you are shelling out around $12,000 a year for him or her. I will also echo a remark made in another response about the impact of kids on your lifestyle. It is a BIG CHANGE, because now there is somebody who is TOTALLY dependent on you, 24 hours a day. For a single parent, this can be gruelling. A single parent who has an older child to care for as the result of divorce after some years of marriage has a tough job. A single parent with an infant has a job that's much tougher. If you choose this route, you will need a LOT of help and support, and dedication to your child, and there will still be a lot of days where you will wonder why in the world you ever made this decision. Myself, I'm stupid and determined -- my inclination would be to raise the child on my own. But it's a rough road, and involves a great deal of personal sacrifice. This is NOT a good decision for a person who is fundamentally self-centered. Good luck to you, whatever you decide!! Debbie McBurnett rruxe!debbiem
smuga@mtuxo.UUCP (j.smuga) (08/05/85)
> > OTHER PARENTS, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG: I have always worried about how > much it costs to raise a child. It always seems that it's not as bad as > I feared. > *** > * Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA > * Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm" > * {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin > *** Steven didn't mention the cost of daycare or full-time sitters. When summer vacation ends, and my two go back to school, my childcare costs will plummet; right now I spend almost half my take-home (admittedly a small amount to begin with) on babysitters. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Janet Smuga I've had a great many troubles in my time, mtuxo!smuga and most of them never happened. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (Charles Forsythe) (08/06/85)
In article <472@tymix.UUCP> whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) writes: >A husband does not have the right to tell his wife what to do or how to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >bring up their child! ^^^^^^^^^^^ I would like to deviate a bit from the personal background of this particular posting (in THAT light: Congratulations!). As a future husband and (hopefully) father, I'm a little disturbed by Pam's seemingly contradictory attitude. In an age where the wife can leave the home, and baby, to pursue a career, I think it a bit sexist to insinuate the father cannot make childrearing descisions. In the case of an unwed mother, I don't see how the father can claim such rights, but a married couple assumes a FATHER as well as a mother. After all, when the baby is weened, what is the difference between a mother or father taking the nurturing role? (Don't throw Fruedian sex roles at me, I know them already!). In any case, I would hope both parents would share the responsibility as well as the rewards of raising children. -- Charles Forsythe CSDF@MIT-VAX "You are a stupid fool." -Wang Zeep "I'm not a fool!" -The Hated One
sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) (08/06/85)
> > Just remember that not having an abortion or not puting the child up for > > adoption isn't just YOUR decision. You are also making the decision for > > the child to be. > > > > Let's also just remember that having an abortion will be the last decision > made for that unborn child! > > Jeff McQuinn just VAXing around PLEASE. I BEG YOU. LET'S NOT GET INTO THE ABORTION ISSUE HERE. PLEASE SAVE IT FOR net.politics or net.religion. LETS NIP THIS IN THE BUD NOW! -- Sarah E. Dugan "One Day At A Time" ########################################################################### # AT&T Bell Labs IH 1D-408 The Forest (home) # # Naperville-Wheaton Rd. 1353 Crab Apple Court Apt. 101 # # Naperville, Illinois 60566 Naperville, Illinois 60540 # # (312) 979 - 5545 (312) 355 - 0445 # ###########################################################################
cjdb@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Charles Blair) (08/07/85)
> PLEASE. I BEG YOU. LET'S NOT GET INTO THE ABORTION ISSUE HERE. PLEASE > SAVE IT FOR net.politics or net.religion. Nope. Save it for net.abortion, where it more properly belongs.
tmoody@sjuvax.UUCP (T. Moody) (08/07/85)
> In article <3484@cornell.UUCP> martin@cornell.UUCP (Susan Martin) writes: > > > > I have recently learned that I'm going to be a mother! > > Congratulations!! > > > Also, if I marry the baby's father, he'll have the right to tell me what > >to do and how to bring up my child. > > A husband does not have the right to tell his wife what to do or how to > bring up their child! Activites which effect both parents and/or the > children can be resolved by discussion and compromise. If either person > believes they have a right to tell the other what to do, or refuses to > discuss or compromise when differences arise, then the marriage will > have problems. > PKW > hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur [] I agree with everything that Pamela Whitehurst has said, and wish only to add one remark (besides congratulations!). Since you have evidently resolved to have the baby, one of the primary unresolved things is how to define the relationship with the baby's father. As PKW says, he certainly has no right to tell you what to do. It is worth finding out, however, if the two of you have *profound* disagreements about child rearing. Maybe you already know; if not, I should think that it might be a decisive factor. Naturally, it's not necessary for both parents to agree about everything, when it comes to children. I do think that there should be some reasonable amount of agreement, however. Perpetual conflict will undermine whatever advantages (if any) there might be to having both parents around. All the best to you and yours. Todd Moody {allegra|astrovax|bpa|burdvax}!sjuvax!tmoody Philosophy Department St. Joseph's U. Philadelphia, PA 19131
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (08/12/85)
In article <547@mit-vax.UUCP> csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (Charles Forsythe) writes: >In an age where the wife can leave the home, and baby, to pursue a >career, I think it a bit sexist to insinuate the father cannot make >childrearing descisions. > What I meant to express what that a father does not have an inalienable right to dictate childrearing procedures. Neither does a mother. My comments were made to assure Susan that she does not have to submit to the fathers method of childrearing if she decides to marry her childs father. Of course a father can make childrearing decisions. Childrearing is not a sex-linked trait. And since it isn't parents need to find an acceptable way of resolving disagreements before they arrive. >In the case of an unwed mother, I don't see how the father can claim >such rights, but a married couple assumes a FATHER as well as a mother. > I think an unwed father should have the same right as a divorced father. Including the right to request custody. >In any case, I would hope both parents would share the responsibility as >well as the rewards of raising children. > Keep that thought. -- PKW hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur
stern@steinmetz.UUCP (Harold A. Stern) (08/12/85)
> In article <472@tymix.UUCP> whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K Whitehurst) writes: > >A husband does not have the right to tell his wife what to do or how to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >bring up their child! > ^^^^^^^^^^^ <Charles Forsythe> > In an age where the wife can leave the home, and baby, to pursue a > career, I think it a bit sexist to insinuate the father cannot make > childrearing descisions. I couldn't believe that anyone would make a statement like the one attributed to Pamela, so I went back to re-read the article to see if she was misquoted. I think you should try that too, Charles. You got the quote right, but the context is missing. If you finish the paragraph, she goes on to say something to the effect that no-one in a relationship has the right to "tell" the other what to do. I don't think she meant to imply something as ridiculous as what you make it sound like she is saying (please correct me if I am wrong, Pamela). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- harold a. stern 410 memorial drive stern%teela@mit-athena cambridge, ma 02139 uvacs!edison!steinmetz!stern (617) 225-8304, 253-1541 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bobn@bmcg.UUCP (Bob Nebert) (08/12/85)
> In article <3484@cornell.UUCP> martin@cornell.UUCP (Susan Martin) writes: > > I have recently learned that I'm going to be a mother! > >I'm 28, single, and a lowly secretary. > > I'm really scared to death. Since my salary is not that great at all, > >I am finding it difficult figuring out how I can possibily afford this! > OTHER PARENTS, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG: > Food (babies don't cost ANYTHING if you > can nurse) is most costly for people who eat more. Even with our son You're right about free food while nursing but when the supplier of the food goes to work how do you handle that. My suggestion is what my wife did. She got one of those pumps and when the baby wasn't eating ( ha ), she pumped into small glass bottles about 2oz. and froze them. The sitter can pop them into water and heat them up for jr. > clothes won't cost very much. The way kids go through clothes we got most of ours from hand me downs from friends whose kids outgrew them. Of course when ours ( We have 3 all under 5 ) outgrew we passed them on. [read - free]. Thrify stores supplied another big chunk for clothes. Of course don't buy junk. There are a lot of clothes in thrift stores that are almost new. Parents with one child gave them to the store and they are still good. I'd like to offer my congrats also. Don't be overly nervous and relax. Sometimes I want to run out screaming into the night but EVERYDAY when I come home after work the two oldest squeal DADDY! and run up and give me hugs and kisses and that makes it worth everything. Enjoy.
mbr@aoa.UUCP (Mark Rosenthal) (08/15/85)
In article <480@tymix.UUCP> whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) writes: >I think an unwed father should have the same right as a divorced father. >Including the right to request custody. As far as I can tell, this is not the way the world actually works. The experience of male friends of mine who have requested even joint custody is that this is only an option if the mother agrees. In contested cases, it seems that custody is almost invariably granted to the mother. Sole custody by the father seems only to be granted, if the mother agrees or has been proved to have taken part in the Sharon Tate murders (or something equally henious). Anybody know for certain what the laws are? I'm sure they vary from state to state. Anybody know how closely actual practice follows the laws? In other words, under what circumstances (if any) can an unmarried father obtain custody of his children if he and the mother should split up? How does being married change this? Of all cases in which both unmarried parents request sole custody of the child, in what percent of the cases was custody granted to the father? Is there on record, even a single case of this happening? What about cases in which the father (believing that he cannot possibly hope for sole custody if the mother objects) requests joint custody and the mother requests sole custody? What are the analogous percentages for married parents? Any lawyers out there? If you have hard facts, please include pointers to your sources. If they're opinions, please label them as such. -- Mark of the Valley of Roses ...!{decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!aoa!mbr