itkin@luke.UUCP (Steven List) (08/04/85)
[start mild flame]
Well gang, I'm truly disappointed. I announced the birth of our
daughter and mentioned the presence of her older sister, suggesting that
maybe some discussion might be interesting. NOTHING! Did I miss
something? Has this issue been discussed to death? This is something
very important and relevant, I think.
[end flame - start discussion]
Several (potential) parents have written me saying they are interested
in such a discussion. Since nothing ensued from my announcement, I'd
like to start one here.
To recap a little bit, we had planned to have our almost four year old
daughter present at the birth of our next child. To prepare her, we
had showed her videotape of our two year old son's birth, bought and
shared some books (we found several excellent ones), and discussed it
quite a bit. When Debbie went into labor three weeks early, we were
fortunately prepared. Almost! In the ABC at Good Samaritan Hospital
the OB advised us that sibling presence had to be approved by an
Executive Committee, and that we hadn't submitted the forms. He
further advised us that he was opposed to it! This was a surprise and
a shock to Debbie who was fully emotionally committed to this. The
doctor said that the reason for the committee and his opposition was
that there are three children in the area under psychiatric care due to
the trauma of witnessing a sibling's birth. Those children had been
prepared too, he said. Being fearless, we nonetheless requested that
something be done. The doctor, in spite of his reservations, arranged
everything, and we received verbal approval within fifteen minutes.
Our daughter not only survived quite well, but was fascinated and
thrilled at the whole experience. We videotaped this event also, and
its clear in the tape that she loved every minute of it. Her presence
created a special bond between her (Sarah) and her new sister
(Samantha). Also, our son (Matthew) came in shortly after and
participated in the Leboyer bath. The bonding from this shared birth
is astounding. Both children (not to mention their parents) adore
their sister. They are very protective and loving and gentle (she's 12
days old today). Debbie and I felt that this was an incomparable
experience, and would have been very sad not to have shared it.
I've recently spoken with a colleague whose wife is due to deliver
their baby in mid-september. They have three older children (10, 9,
and 3), and Marcia would like them to be present. Pete is kind of
casual and doesn't really want them there. I confess that I'm somewhat
astounded. But then, some people don't want to have to share and
divide their attention (this is not meant as a criticism, just trying
to understand these aliens). As with photographing and videotaping the
event (another topic altogether), YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND REDO IT IF YOU
CHANGE YOUR MIND LATER. This is exactly what happened to us with Sarah
(our first). We didn't videotape it and really regret it now.
Fortunately, we have some excellent pictures taken by my father (ok,
let's hear it from those who can't understand this either).
Anyway, I'm really interested to hear some discussion of this (and so
are some others, I know). If you have some personal questions (or
criticisms), please mail them to me. If they are appropriate, I'll
share them with the net. Otherwise, go ahead and followup.
--
***
* Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA
* Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm"
* {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin
***todd@SCIRTP.UUCP (Todd Jones) (08/06/85)
excerpts from Steven List's article regarding sibling presence in the delivery room marked by >. > In the ABC at Good Samaritan Hospital > the OB advised us that sibling presence had to be approved by an > Executive Committee, and that we hadn't submitted the forms. He > further advised us that he was opposed to it! This was a surprise and > a shock to Debbie who was fully emotionally committed to this. Were you and Debbie convinced there could be no adverse reaction from your observing child? > I've recently spoken with a colleague whose wife is due to deliver > their baby in mid-september. They have three older children (10, 9, > and 3), and Marcia would like them to be present. Pete is kind of > casual and doesn't really want them there. I confess that I'm somewhat > astounded. Why are astounded? > But then, some people don't want to have to share and > divide their attention (this is not meant as a criticism, just trying > to understand these aliens). As with photographing and videotaping the > event (another topic altogether), YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND REDO IT IF YOU > CHANGE YOUR MIND LATER. This is exactly what happened to us with Sarah > (our first). We didn't videotape it and really regret it now. > Fortunately, we have some excellent pictures taken by my father (ok, > let's hear it from those who can't understand this either). > I'm not going to criticize you, but I think i should offer an explanation why some fairly liberal-minded parents opted out of sharing the delivery experience with their kids. The miracle of birth is a wonderful spectacle to behold if the beholder is prepared for the pain and joy. In the event of a complication (even minor) it would be difficult for many children to comprehend the ensuing events. Should they witness a C-section? I should hope not. But if they were told how wonderful the miracle of birth was and see Mommy wisked away for some secret operation, it would not surprise me if the observing child had difficulties in processing this. If your child does not cope well with the process, remember, YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND REDO IT IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND LATER. Don't misunderstand me. I don't advocate shrouding the birthing process from your children in some dark cloak of secrecy and myth. But I felt our son had more to lose than the potential "character-building" experience could have allowed him to gain from. I know you're saying,"That poor kid never saw the most wonderful experience know to personkind." I only hope he will experience it himself... when he is ready. I was present at the birth of our two children. I wouldn't have missed it for the world, and we explained to our then 3 1/2 year old exactly how his sibling was to come into the world. He was fascinated, but never indicated he would have wanted to be there. I also confess I took no photos, but my recollection, I assure you, is more vivid than any photographs could convey. I'm glad everything worked out fine for you and your observing kids, but I am glad we left our son with his aunt. To minimize separation, we left at 9:00 p.m., delivered at 11:30 p.m., and returned home the next morning at 10:00 a.m. -todd jones
ahearn@convexs.UUCP (08/07/85)
My daughter Lara was present at the birth of her brother, John, a little
over three years ago, when she was three years old. She has apparently survived
the supposed ``trauma'' very well, with no scars, hysteria, or symptomatic
behavior. Furthermore, she and her brother have from the beginning been very,
very close. Perhaps her presence at the birth has something to do with their
closeness. Who knows? Seems likely to me.
We had not planned to have Lara around during delivery, but we had done a
certain amount of ``prep'' work with her, just to satisfy her curiosity about
the pregnancy. Fortunately, when time came for Lara to leave with a friend,
she absolutely refused, then broke into tears when I tried to force the issue.
So, after a brief conference with my wife and the attending midwives (yes,
we were having a home birth; flamers take note), I made Lara a peanut-butter
sandwich, and she stayed through the entire delivery. She was actually pretty
helpful--she took over the job of stroking her mother's head, applying cold
cloths, etc. As I rememember, Lara was as pleased as we were when John was
born.
I don't know if it's a good idea to have children present at births as a
general rule. I know that in our case, we were blessed with a pretty healthy,
intelligent, secure child, and a relatively calm birth with no complications.
I don't suspect children would benefit from the crisis atmosphere of a hospital
delivery, nor do I suspect that any child would do well in the presence of
hysterical parents.
I know that I value the experience of being a part of the births of my children
as the high points of my life to date. I'm glad that I was able to share this
experience with Lara, and I'm a little abashed that I took so seriously the
notion that she couldn't handle the experience _because_ she was a ``kid.''
Good topic.
Regards,
Joe Ahearn
{allegra, ihnp4, uiucds, ctvax}!convex!ahearnyoddy@elsie.UUCP (yoddy schwartz) (08/10/85)
When my husband and I took childbirth classes before our
son was born we were told that in the event of a "C Section"
it was possible for the husband to remain with the wife
as long as she didn't have a general anesthetic.
I looked at my husband and said "Why would anyone want
to stay concious for major surgery?"
My second question was "Why would a husband want to watch
his wife have major surgery?"
I guess that shows my "alien" attitude towards childbirth. I
can't imagine sitting around watching vidios after the fact.
Nor can I imagine wanting Chris (my son) around during the birth
of our next child. I guess I never viewed the whole thing as
a spectator sport. He might be able to handle it---he might
love it---but actually I'd worry about a kid that loved seeing
his mother go through labor.
yoddy
...!decvax!allegra!umcp-cs!elsie!yoddytodd@SCIRTP.UUCP (Todd Jones) (08/13/85)
> We had not planned to have Lara around during delivery, but we had done a > certain amount of ``prep'' work with her, just to satisfy her curiosity about > the pregnancy. Fortunately, when time came for Lara to leave with a friend, > she absolutely refused, then broke into tears when I tried to force the issue. > So, after a brief conference with my wife and the attending midwives (yes, > we were having a home birth; flamers take note), I made Lara a peanut-butter > sandwich, and she stayed through the entire delivery. She was actually pretty > helpful--she took over the job of stroking her mother's head, applying cold > cloths, etc. As I rememember, Lara was as pleased as we were when John was > born. > Joe Ahearn > {allegra, ihnp4, uiucds, ctvax}!convex!ahearn This scenario seems like a much healthier way to include a sibling at the delivery of a baby than the others mentioned. This way the sibling can retreat to his/her room if things get hairy. This has got to be healthier than instigating some organically inspired parental notion that sibling presence at delivery will enhance the sibling/baby relationship. For what it's worth, I approve. ||||||| || || [ O-O ] Todd Jones \ ^ / {decvax,akgua}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!todd | ~ | |___| SCI Systems Inc. doesn't necessarily agree with Todd.
cjdb@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Charles Blair) (08/14/85)
> When my husband and I took childbirth classes before our > son was born we were told that in the event of a "C Section" > it was possible for the husband to remain with the wife > as long as she didn't have a general anesthetic. > I looked at my husband and said "Why would anyone want > to stay concious for major surgery?" > My second question was "Why would a husband want to watch > his wife have major surgery?" I'll answer your first question: "Why? Because it's safer." Under general anesthesia you will be the closest you will ever be to dead, short of the real thing. (This is a layperson's way of putting it, but talk to an anesthesiologist or post to net.med.) Furthermore, complications can arise after general anesthesia that won't arise under local. (Again, talk to an anesthesiologist or post to net.med.) I had abdominal surgery performed under a local anesthetic. No pain, and (thankfully) no complications. After discussing the various options for anesthesia available to me before the operation with my anesthesiologist, I do not believe I would ever *elect* general anesthesia over local (of course, in some situations the patient has no choice.) I was told that in my case, the potential complications from undergoing general anesthesia were greater than the potential complications from the operation itself.
itkin@luke.UUCP (Steven List) (08/16/85)
In article <5203@elsie.UUCP> yoddy@elsie.UUCP (yoddy schwartz) writes: >I looked at my husband and said "Why would anyone want >to stay concious for major surgery?" >My second question was "Why would a husband want to watch >his wife have major surgery?" You only have that child once. If your (anyone's) partner wants to be present and participate, they have to make the decision as to whether or not a Caesarian precludes that parcipation. I know MANY fathers who were present. The focus is not on the surgery, but on the emergence of the child. >I guess that shows my "alien" attitude towards childbirth. I >can't imagine sitting around watching vidios after the fact. >Nor can I imagine wanting Chris (my son) around during the birth >of our next child. I guess I never viewed the whole thing as >a spectator sport. He might be able to handle it---he might >love it---but actually I'd worry about a kid that loved seeing >his mother go through labor. If you view it this way, so will/would he. It's your attitude he would reflect. Our children were taught to view the event as a miraculous, warm, sharing opportunity. My wife said, after the birth of the first, that once into labor she didn't care who or what was watching. As long as she got the baby out in one piece and could stop pushing and throwing up. While the other two were much easier, she/we wouldn't be without the pictures and videos. I guess it all depends on how you feel about the birth experience. If you consider it something unpleasant, to be gotten over with with the minimum of fuss and attention, then obviously you wouldn't want pictures and so on. We don't. It's wonderful, exciting, uplifting. If people like to watch movies over and over again and read books repeatedly, why not this? Sarah Melinda, Steven Matthew, and Samantha Megan's father. -- *** * Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA * Just part of the stock at "Uncle Bene's Farm" * {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin ***
sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) (08/19/85)
> > When my husband and I took childbirth classes before our > > son was born we were told that in the event of a "C Section" > > it was possible for the husband to remain with the wife > > as long as she didn't have a general anesthetic. > > > I looked at my husband and said "Why would anyone want > > to stay concious for major surgery?" > > My second question was "Why would a husband want to watch > > his wife have major surgery?" > > I'll answer your first question: "Why? Because it's safer." Under > general anesthesia you will be the closest you will ever be to dead, > short of the real thing. (This is a layperson's way of putting it, but > talk to an anesthesiologist or post to net.med.) Furthermore, > complications can arise after general anesthesia that won't arise under > local. (Again, talk to an anesthesiologist or post to net.med.) I had > abdominal surgery performed under a local anesthetic. No pain, and > (thankfully) no complications. After discussing the various options for > anesthesia available to me before the operation with my > anesthesiologist, I do not believe I would ever *elect* general > anesthesia over local (of course, in some situations the patient has no > choice.) I was told that in my case, the potential complications from > undergoing general anesthesia were greater than the potential > complications from the operation itself. There's another reason which concerns the child. Some kinds of local anesthesia (I had an "endural block" (I think)) do not affect the baby whereas general anesthesia does. It's much better for your child this way. As to the second question, it's not so much that your husband does/doesn't want to see you have major surgery, It's that he may want to see his child right away and (depending on the hospital) hold him/her much sooner than would be possible otherwise. When I had my daughter through a planned (not emergency) C Section, my labor couch was by my side narrating what was happening, my mother was in the observation deck watching her first grandchild come into the world, and I got to hear my child's first cries. Next to "natural" childbirth, it was the best possible way. I also got to nurse her within an hour of the time she was born which I don't think would have been possible otherwise. It sure was worth it to me! -- Sarah E. Dugan "Easy Does It, But *DO* It" ########################################################################### # AT&T Bell Labs IH 1D-408 The Forest (home) # # Naperville-Wheaton Rd. 1353 Crab Apple Court Apt. 101 # # Naperville, Illinois 60566 Naperville, Illinois 60540 # # (312) 979 - 5545 (312) 355 - 0445 # ###########################################################################