hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) (10/24/85)
In <123@mit-hector.UUCP> melissa@mit-hector.UUCP (Melissa Silvestre) writes: >A few weeks ago, 60 Minutes did a show on D&D. Their claim was that there >are a large number of homocides/suicides which are linked to D&D recently. >They showed interviews with parents and police in a number of cases, with >both groups saying "Johnny was obssessed with the game but I didn't realize >how badly until he stabbed his brother and himself ..." or such stuff. >Gary Gygax (creator of D&D) was interviewed and he denyed that there was >any link. He sounded pretty feeble about it. Ah, yes, 60 Minutes, *THE* most reliable news program on American television. First off, in any case like this when trying to decide if there is a causal, or even significant positive, correlation between two phenomena, like, say, playing football and alcoholic parents, you need to do more than just look at anecdotal evidence. The episode of 60 Minutes was very heavily discussed in net.games.frp, and the upshot (based on sources of information closer to the events and certainly with a different bias than 60 Minutes started with) was that the case which 60 Minutes paid the most attention to, where the mother was adamant that it was d&d that made her boy kill himself, was grossly underresearched. Classmates and the boy's own brother indicated that he was not a frequent player, and that he was a frequent drug user. His mother refused to accept this. Now, it is easily shown that there is a strong positive correlation between drug usage and depression, often leading to suicide; there is also a very strong correlation between being a teenager and suicide. On the other hand there are hundreds of thousands of people who play D&D and related games, and there has been shown NO correlation between d&d and suicide; as far as I know there haven't been any studies made. THAT is what Gygax was saying, and yes, it may sound "feeble" but it IS truthful, which is a whole lot better than unsupported gossip, speculation, and innuendo. Unfortunately, 60 Minutes trades in the latter. Hutch
bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) (10/25/85)
In article <123@mit-hector.UUCP> melissa@mit-hector.UUCP (Melissa Silvestre) writes: >A few weeks ago, 60 Minutes did a show on D&D. Their claim was that there >are a large number of homocides/suicides which are linked to D&D recently. >They showed interviews with parents and police in a number of cases, with >both groups saying "Johnny was obssessed with the game but I didn't realize >how badly until he stabbed his brother and himself ..." or such stuff. >Gary Gygax (creator of D&D) was interviewed and he denyed that there was >any link. He sounded pretty feeble about it. > >Well folks, it seems to me that if you are a parent concerned about your >child, you have two choices. 1) Forbid him to play, or 2) Learn enough >about the game to be able to talk to him intelligently and discuss the >fantasy vs reality aspects with him. I'm sure all of the readers of >net.kids can tell you how well the first way works, which is to say >worse than not at all. If possible, please check the spate of articles posted to net.games.frp WRT: the 60 Minutes story. Several misconceptions were presented by CBS in the course of the item. More specifically, the case of the two brothers in Colorado whose murder/suicide was referred to had no connection to D&D; the mother of the boys, in Denver's Rocky Mountain News of the week following the broadcast, stated that the elder son had recently been convicted of car theft after involvement in a joyride, and committed suicide rather than face jail. Filial loyalty apparently prompted his brother to join him. There was no mention of D&D in the note left, and it was apparently the investigating officer who implicated D&D after learning that the boys had, on occasion, played. In the newpaper interview, the mother was quoted as saying that her sons' involvement with the game was a casual one. In a similar vein, the 'Today' program about two weeks later had an item on D&D, with the same psychologist who appeared on 60 Minutes, and a representative of a gifted childrens' group in California. While the psychologist repeated his misgivings about the game, the mother simply asked what kind of home life these children had had, that they would use a game to escape from reality to the point of self- destruction. When the psychologist proposed Federal hearings, the mother heartily agreed, saying it would likely bring out problems in the home environment of those children involved, or false implications like the Colorado case above. She went on to say that any problem with an obsession about D&D was a problem with AN OBSESSION, and mentioned a case of a young 'hacker-nerd' type who was spending hours upon hours closed up in his room playing with a terminal. She said the group's recommendation had been to bring the child's machine out into a family area, to encourage more people contact. As a player myself for some five years, and the parent of a young child, I have no problem with the game as such. D&D encourages imagination, but as many have already said, no more so than, say, amateur theatrics. If some unstable youngsters unfortunately carry their game into reality, with tragic results, is the game at fault, or the children? Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG ============================================================================= UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\ {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 Disclaimer: My opinions are my own. Quote: "Delay is preferable to error." - Thomas Jefferson
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (10/29/85)
In <123@mit-hector.UUCP> melissa@mit-hector.UUCP (Melissa Silvestre) writes: >A few weeks ago, 60 Minutes did a show on D&D. Their claim was that there >are a large number of homocides/suicides which are linked to D&D recently. >They showed interviews with parents and police in a number of cases, with >both groups saying "Johnny was obssessed with the game but I didn't realize >how badly until he stabbed his brother and himself ..." or such stuff. Since this subject is still making the rounds, I'd like to repeat a summary of a point I made about the above in net.games.frp and net.suicide: Apparently unlike 60 Minutes, I researched the national statistics on teenage suicide by contacting the local Suicide Prevention Center, looking in the U.S. Census data, and consulting with a professional demographer. When comparing the figures derived from this research with those derived from 60 Minutes' research the following statistic emerged: Teenagers who play D&D are _less_ likely to commit suicide than the average teenager by a factor of _at least_ 35 TO 1. Sources: The Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center _Statistical Abstract of the United States -- 1985_, The Bureau of the Census Now, can we _please_ lay this apocryphal nonsense to rest? -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp(+)TTI Common Sense is what tells you that a ten 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. pound weight falls ten times as fast as a Santa Monica, CA 90405 one pound weight. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
herbie@polaris.UUCP (Herb Chong) (10/29/85)
In article <327@pedsgd.UUCP> bobh@pedsgd.UUCP (Bob Halloran) writes: >If some unstable >youngsters unfortunately carry their game into reality, >with tragic results, is the game at fault, or the children? or the parents? Herb Chong... I'm still user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... New net address -- VNET,BITNET,NETNORTH,EARN: HERBIE AT YKTVMH UUCP: {allegra|cbosgd|cmcl2|decvax|ihnp4|seismo}!philabs!polaris!herbie CSNET: herbie.yktvmh@ibm-sj.csnet ARPA: herbie.yktvmh.ibm-sj.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) (10/30/85)
> D&D encourages imagination, but as many have already said, > no more so than, say, amateur theatrics. If some unstable > youngsters unfortunately carry their game into reality, > with tragic results, is the game at fault, or the children? > > Bob Halloran > Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG or the parents? -- Suzanne Barnett-Scott uucp: ...{decvax,ihnp4,noao,savax,seismo}!terak!suze phone: (602) 998-4800 us mail: CalComp/Sanders Display Products Division (Formerly Terak Corporation) 14151 N 76th street, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
barb@oliven.UUCP (Barbara Jernigan) (11/07/85)
> > As a player myself for some five years, and the parent of > a young child, I have no problem with the game as such. > D&D encourages imagination, but as many have already said, > no more so than, say, amateur theatrics. If some unstable > youngsters unfortunately carry their game into reality, > with tragic results, is the game at fault, or the children? > > Bob Halloran > Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG Here, here! The essense is, D&D is A GAME. I think more kids are obsessed by sports such as football and basketball than D&D. Which is *not* to say that there aren't those who take D&D too far; but, as Bob said, is that really the game's fault? A lot of the hysteria stems from a lack of understanding -- our imaginations can run so wild from hear-say. (And wild allegations playing on everyone's subconscious fears of the boogy-man sells papers >alas<.) Let's face it, folks, not so long ago a knowledge of herb-lore was enough to get you burned as a witch. If you are *really* concerned, play the game once or twice. Nothing cures (unfounded) fear like knowledge. And you *might* even enjoy it. ___________________ ______________\ ___________ | ______ / . / / o .ooo. ./ /. . o@ooo0 Barb .ooooo. .ooooo. .oooo oo..oo oo...ooo ooo..ooo \ .oo oo oooooo oooooo ooo ooo
fox@daemen.UUCP (Merlin) (11/12/85)
For those of you who do not know about D&D and are worried about your kids
playing it let give you a basic background.
Dungeons & Dragons is a Fantasy Role Playing game (FRP). This means that the
person playing the game creates a charaters which he role plays as if he were
that character. This is done thru the use of special dice. There are 4-sided,
6-sided, 8-sided, 10-sided, 12-sided, 20-sided, 30-sided. These dice control
(more or less) the outcome of events, be it a fight with a monster, an attempt
to hide in shadows or whatever.
The Dungeon Master (DM) or Game Master (GM) controls the game. He decides
which monster will attack who, if he will attack, etc. etc. The DM usually does
not control what the players will do, unless you have relatively inexperienced
players who do something like this:
DM > You have a solid oak door in front of you.
Player1> I'm going to bash it in with my shoulder
DM > Why?
Player1> You said it was solid
DM > I said it was solid but I didn't say it was locked or jammed
Player1> Then I'll try to open it.
DM > The door opens into a 40 X 50 foot room, in which you see......
This may seem unitelligent but I have had people try to do this.
Many people question this game because of the use of "spells". I use (")
because any intelligent person knows that "spells" do not exist, the only thing
that does exist is ignorance. When a person doesn't understand how something
is done, then of course it HAS to be magical. In one of the rule books called
The Players Handbook ([TM] this book is made by TSR) it has listings of magical
spells. Without the use these spells, this game would not have much fantasy
in it.
The spells are said to be cast or thrown. This means that the character
in the game is casting a spell. Remember, the characters are in an alter world
where virtually anything is possible. So when the character throws a spell
the person playing is not in anyway throwing a spell.
Many people question the game because of the use of demons, devils, angels,
gods, etc. Well on the use of these monsters, these are just like any other
monster in the game they are to be either overcome in some way it is the same
with these monster as with anyother monster. (By the way the term monster is a
general term meaning anything other than my character, after all if a martian
is a monster to me, what am I to it?) They are nothing special other than being
tougher to deal with.
One other thing that people don't like is that the Christian God is excluded
in the game, not to mention the Moslum God, the Buddist God, etc. I believe
in the Christian God myself and I cannot see how anyone can put set statistics
upon him. After all what would people think if statistics were put on him
and some Greek god happened to have statistics higher than those?
After all we just want to play the game to have fun not to say 'This god is
better than that god.' We just want to use our imaginations.
The biggest thing with this game is the you can use your imagination. Thus
anything that can be thought up can be done. If a kid using his mind is bad
than why be a kid at all?
Anyone wishing more info on this game ask about it in net.games.frp
or send me E-mail.
Dave Fox
All statements enclosed herein are mine (and possibly somebody else's)