ajs@hpfcla.UUCP (12/11/85)
Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all
and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I
do, but I'll share it with you", and "sure, but will you share it with
me?" worked for a while, but not lately. She's getting pretty greedy,
and easily upset if not humored. Not desirable traits!
"Go read a book" is fine, if you tell me which book. Please post your
answers if they're short, or mail them to me if they're long. I don't
promise to summarize on this one. Thanks in advance for any
discussion/replies this generates.
Alan Silverstein, Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Systems Division, Colorado
{ihnp4 | hplabs}!hpfcla!ajs, 303-226-3800 x3053, N 40 31'31" W 105 00'43"laman@ncr-sd.UUCP (Mike Laman) (12/13/85)
In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I >do, but I'll share it with you", and "sure, but will you share it with >me?" worked for a while, but not lately. She's getting pretty greedy, >and easily upset if not humored. Not desirable traits! > : : : Our oldest one is three years old and has been greedy at times too. We are still in this situation, so I'm still learning from it. For what it is worth, she either shares it or doesn't get to play with it at all. The are a few exceptions for tiny toys and just wanting to play by herself. In these cases, she has to trade (yes, that word is in her vocabulary) so the other one is not left empty handed. I don't allow trading when the other kid is intensely playing with it. I think this defends the 17 month old's ``rights''. When he complains about a taken toy, she has to share. They are learning how to work things out, but it will be a good while before that is satisfactory to both. Sometimes they just have to what until the other is finished. That's how they share banging on my terminal at home. One at a time. Whatever happens, you rarely win. They both want the same thing exclusively, and RIGHT NOW, so both may not be happy. They just have to learn to get along with each other. They still have many years that they will be living together. [ I feel my wife allows to much trading sometimes. That really doesn't give the younger one any real say. It's like saying "I'm the bigger one. I want this, so I will give you this toy that I don't want to play with." I guess I might be a little more sensitive to younger ones. I was the youngest in my family, and my wife was the oldest one in her family. Hopefully we'll balance our sensitivities. our decisions. That brings up one good thing about having kids. Before I knew that older ones in the family have their complaints as do the younger ones. But with kids in the house, I can really SEE it and thus have a more complete understanding of the overall picture. That's what the little ones miss. The overall picture -- FAMILY. They each have their position (pecking order) and responsibilities. After all what kids like responsibilities? Sure they like freedoms, but responsibilities? ] Sorry, I don't think I'll ever post a short article to net.kids. Too much parent in me now. Mike Laman UUCP: {ucbvax,philabs,sdcsla}!sdcsvax!ncr-sd!laman
mark@umcp-cs.UUCP (Mark Weiser) (12/16/85)
In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I >do, but I'll share it with you", and "sure, but will you share it with >me?" worked for a while, but not lately. She's getting pretty greedy, >and easily upset if not humored. Not desirable traits! > Maybe not desirable in an adult, but ok for a toddler. We accepted upsetness (tantrums) in both our daughters as natural reactions to frustration when being told "No". We try to respond to the tantrums by (a) staying around (no isolation), (b) preventing hurt to them or the surroundings, (c) telling them we love them (this sometimes causing the screaming to intensify: ok with me). It always seemed to me that trying to avoid all upsetness was not realistic parenting: after all, we get upset as adults, why not kids too? I like to have someone to commiserate with when I'm upset. Even if the commiserator is the apparent source of the frustration (like a parent or a slow checkout person) it helps if they are sympathetic. After a tantrum or two on any given issue our daughters seemed to accept the situation better. -mark -- Spoken: Mark Weiser ARPA: mark@maryland Phone: +1-301-454-7817 CSNet: mark@umcp-cs UUCP: {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!mark USPS: Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) (12/16/85)
> In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: > >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all > >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." I've only done it three times, the third being the clincher. It was the oldest ones favorite Barbie doll! Addison ihlpa!ibyf My brother? I always thought of him as mom and dad's science project.
mcal@ihuxb.UUCP (Mike Clifford) (12/17/85)
> > In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: > > >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all > > >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I > > I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with > is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the > object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and > deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something > like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." > I've only done it three times, the third being the clincher. > It was the oldest ones favorite Barbie doll! > Addison > ihlpa!ibyf YIKES! I can't see what your kids about supposed to learn except that you won't take the time to teach them how to work out their differences. Would you please expound on this? Mike Clifford
sidney@faron.UUCP (Sidney Markowitz) (12/19/85)
In article <1187@ihuxb.UUCP> mcal@ihuxb.UUCP (Mike Clifford) writes: > YIKES! I can't see what your kids about supposed to learn except that > you won't take the time to teach them how to work out their differences. > Would you please expound on this? One of the most difficult and most useful things for a parent to learn is that the fastest way for a kid to learn social skills is experientially, through trial and error. A statement like "Daddy, she won't let me play with my crayons!" may cause you to want to step in and adjucate or mediate, but it is pretty certain that you don't have all the information to judge, that the kids will think one of them has "won" in the deal, and what they will learn is that a proper tactic in conflict when they are in the losing position is to take a chance on commplaining to you. A very good principle is to require the children to handle social disputes themselves, since it really is between them. There is no better teacher of how to get along with others than the experience of *having* to get along with them. I like Addison's (ihpa!ibyf) strategy of throwing out whatever they're fighting over, simply because it quickly leads to the kids resolving such things themselves, so the parent is not tempted to interfere. I am always surprised how much faster and more creatively the kids work things out when I let them than when I attempt to "teach" them fair play. Of course, if it looks like someone is going to get hurt, or the noise level is interfering with *my* activities, then I am justified in stepping in to deal with that aspect of it. But then the statement is not "you have to share" -- Instead it's "If you are going to fight or play or whatever, that's up to you, but there will be no <hitting/noise-in-this-room/whatever> while you do it." -- Sidney Markowitz ARPA: sidney@mitre-bedford UUCP: ...{allegra,decvax,genrad,ihnp4,philabs,security,utzoo}!linus!sidney
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (12/19/85)
In article <941@ihlpa.UUCP> ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) writes: >> In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >> >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all >> >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I > >I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with >is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the >object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and >deposit the offending item. ... I'v been thinking about this for a few days and it is just getting more complicated. There are actually several ideas that children need to grasp. The first is ownership. The concept of what a child owns really depends on the parents involved. It is my opinion that children do own things. They have control over the things that they own. No one may take their posessions without permission, not even siblings. There are other things that the family owns. Children have control over these objects while they are playing with them. If the family owned object can be used by more than one person then they have to share even while they are using it. (Nobody gets to monopolize the crayons!) The second idea is sharing. This is actually a two sided concept. One person owns the object and the other wishes to use it. Sharing is hard to understand before children start playing together (as opposed to playing next to each other). When children have guests they need to provide something for them to do. It helps to talk about this ahead of time and actually decide which toys are going to be shared and which very precious toys are going to be put away until after the guest leaves. It helps even more for the child to have been a guest. I do not believe in forcing children to share their posessions with siblings. This will happen naturally if they like each other and want to play together. There are enough things that they have to share, like parental affection and family owned posessions. -- +-------------------------------------------------------+ | Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own and do not | | necessarily reflect the opinions of | | McDonnell Douglas Corporation. | +-------------------------------------------------------+ PKW hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur
rfb@h.cs.cmu.edu (Rick Busdiecker) (12/20/85)
>> > In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >> > >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all >> > >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I >> >> I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with >> is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the >> object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and >> deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something >> like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." >> I've only done it three times, the third being the clincher. >> It was the oldest ones favorite Barbie doll! >> Addison >> ihlpa!ibyf > >YIKES! I can't see what your kids about supposed to learn except that >you won't take the time to teach them how to work out their differences. >Would you please expound on this? > >Mike Clifford YIKES! is right. Besides the fact that this is just plain cruel, punishment is one of the least effective means of behavior modification. It would be much more effective to try explanation when the incident occurs and, much more importantly, to heap praise on the child the next time they show the slightest bit of generosity or sharing. Then continue to praise good actions. When explaining things to your child, try to emphasize the good aspects of their actions without dwelling on the bad aspects. Please, Addison, for the sake of your children, do some reading in the areas of developmental and behavioral psychology. I'm sure that your intentions are good, but your method is incorrect according to the evidence of an overwhelming amount of research. Positive reinforcement is *always* better than punishment and it will produce other good qualities in your kids. I doubt seriously that you would want your children to start punishing each other, yet you are teaching them that punishment is a reasonable response to undesireable actions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Busdiecker ARPA: rfb@h.cs.cmu.edu Carnegie-Mellon University UUCP: ...!seismo!h.cs.cmu.edu!rfb Mathematics Department AT&T: (412) 521-1459 USPS: 4145 Murray Ave. 15217 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (12/21/85)
In article <941@ihlpa.UUCP> ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) writes: >> >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all >> >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I > >I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with >is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the >object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and >deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something >like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." >I've only done it three times, the third being the clincher. >It was the oldest ones favorite Barbie doll! > > Geez! Do you have any pets? I hope you will use a different procedure if the kids start fighting over the dog or cat! -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) (12/23/85)
> In article <941@ihlpa.UUCP> ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) writes: > >> >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all > >> >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I > Geez! Do you have any pets? I hope you will use a different procedure > if the kids start fighting over the dog or cat! > -- > Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (12/23/85)
My comments on getting young children to share. >>> I only have two, fairly close in age and the best thing I've come up with >>> is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the >>> object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and >>> deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something >>> like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." >>> I've only done it three times, the third being the clincher. >>> It was the oldest ones favorite Barbie doll! >>> Addison I do something similar, but I don't throw the toy away; I just put it up. >>YIKES! I can't see what your kids about supposed to learn except that >>you won't take the time to teach them how to work out their differences. >>Would you please expound on this? >> >>Mike Clifford I would wager that they *have* learned how to work out their differences, since Addison has only had to use the ploy three times. When kids who have been arguing start looking for an adult, I think that they are usually looking for an advocate, not a mediator. I would also wager that Addison has tried lots of different techniques, and found that as long as fighting doesn't cost them anything (be it material or otherwise) and sometimes works, kids will keep fighting. >YIKES! is right. Besides the fact that this is just plain cruel, punishment >is one of the least effective means of behavior modification. It would be >much more effective to try explanation when the incident occurs... If they were being rational enough to listen to an explanation, they wouldn't be fighting in the first place. First you have to stop the fight, and that requires exerting authority, which seems to be anathema to so-called modern theories of child raising. >...and, much >more importantly, to heap praise on the child the next time they show the >slightest bit of generosity or sharing. Then continue to praise good >actions. Some people seem to think that there is a dichotomy: either one praises good behavior or one punishes bad behavior. I think that both are essential. But punishment is a dirty word to some people. Punishment versus rational explanation is another false dichotomy; a parent should be able to explain why the child is being punished. > When explaining things to your child, try to emphasize the good >aspects of their actions without dwelling on the bad aspects. > >Please, Addison, for the sake of your children, do some reading in the areas >of developmental and behavioral psychology. I'm sure that your intentions >are good, but your method is incorrect according to the evidence of an >overwhelming amount of research. Positive reinforcement is *always* better >than punishment and it will produce other good qualities in your kids. It is true that punishment will not generate good behavior; but the purpose of punishment is not to generate good behavior, it's to extinguish bad behavior. Meanwhile, one must reinforce good behavior to take the place of the bad behavior. >I >doubt seriously that you would want your children to start punishing each >other, yet you are teaching them that punishment is a reasonable response to >undesireable actions. In this world, certain types of behavior lead to undesirable consequences. Also, everyone has to do things from time to time that they would rather not. The sooner kids learn these things, the happier they'll be. Gary Samuelson bunker!garys
rwh@aesat.UUCP (Russ Herman) (12/24/85)
> It helps to talk about this ahead of time > and actually decide which toys are going to be shared and which very > precious toys are going to be put away until after the guest leaves. > Pamela Whitehurst When my wife asked four-year-old Joel which toys should be put away when his friend David came to visit, his answer was "Everything". -- ______ Russ Herman / \ {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!rwh @( ? ? )@ ( || ) The opinions above are strictly personal, and ( \__/ ) do not reflect those of my employer (or even \____/ possibly myself an hour from now.)
carl@aoa.UUCP (Carl Witthoft) (12/24/85)
In article <941@ihlpa.UUCP> ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) writes: > >I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with >is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the >object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and >deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something >like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." May I ask what sort of lesson this teaches the kids? My reaction is that they are taught one or more of the following: 1) They are not allowed to have differences or to try to settle said differences. Only the big strong (and mean) adults settle differences by destructive means, i.e. elimination of a toy that is obviously precious to both kids. 2) Anything they like is going to be taken away by the parents. 3) (a little more insidious) If one kid hates another, all he has to do is start a fight over a toy the second kid loves, and BINGO the toy is gonzo, with resultant pain of loss inflicted only on the second kid. If the only way you can calm your kids down is to steal from them , I'm sorry for you and them. Darwin's Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) {decvax,linus,ihnp4,ima,wjh12,wanginst}!bbncca!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201x356 "Selmer MarkVI, Otto Link 5*, and VanDoren Java Cut."
mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) (12/29/85)
> > > In article <32700036@hpfcla.UUCP> ajs@hpfcla.UUCP writes: > > > >Any good advice on "helping" a toddler gently through her "I own it all > > > >and you can't have it" phase? Rational answers like "no you don't, I > > > > I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with > > is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the > > object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and > > deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something > > like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." > > I've only done it three times, the third being the clincher. > > It was the oldest ones favorite Barbie doll! > > Addison > > ihlpa!ibyf > > YIKES! I can't see what your kids about supposed to learn except that > you won't take the time to teach them how to work out their differences. > Would you please expound on this? > > Mike Clifford These comments come from a non-parent, so take them for what they're worth: I think that this is a wonderful solution. We have too many people going around enjoying negative-sum behavior. These are people who don't understand and don't care that they are causong others suffering. If kids learn early enough to associate their selfishness with suffering, there might be a lot less of it. Remember, King Solomon did this trick, too. As someone pointed out, this may also lead the kids to work things out themselves, rather than yelling for mommy. Now if some of us adults would settle things reasonably like well-trained children without taking people to court for leaving the hole in the barbed wire on top of the fence that the 8-year-old climbed over to eat the green apples that gave him the tummyache ... -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) mtx5b!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (12/31/85)
In article <525@aesat.UUCP> rwh@aesat.UUCP (Russ Herman) writes: >> It helps to talk about this ahead of time >> and actually decide which toys are going to be shared and which very >> precious toys are going to be put away until after the guest leaves. >> Pamela Whitehurst >When my wife asked four-year-old Joel which toys should be put away when >his friend David came to visit, his answer was "Everything". >-- > ______ Russ Herman Did Joel explain how he was going to play with David if there were no toys available to play with? Does he think David will enjoy himself enough to want to play there again? What this really depends on is Joel wanting to play with David. I am not sure when children should learn about socializing with people they do not really want as friends. -- +-------------------------------------------------------+ | Disclaimer: The above opinions are my own and do not | | necessarily reflect the opinions of | | McDonnell Douglas Corporation. | +-------------------------------------------------------+ PKW hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur
carl@aoa.UUCP (Carl Witthoft) (01/02/86)
In article <941@ihlpa.UUCP> ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) writes: > >I only have two, fiarly close in age and the best thing I've come up with >is when I hear them fighting over anything, I calmly walk over, take the >object in question, walk to the garbage can (in sight of both of them) and >deposit the offending item. This may or may not be accompanied by something >like. "Keep fighting and ALL your toys will be in the garbage." May I ask what sort of lesson this teaches the kids? My reaction is that they are taught one or more of the following: 1) They are not allowed to have differences or to try to settle said differences. Only the big strong (and mean) adults settle differences by destructive means, i.e. elimination of a toy that is obviously precious to both kids. 2) Anything they like is going to be taken away by the parents. 3) (a little more insidious) If one kid hates another, all he has to do is start a fight over a toy the second kid loves, and BINGO the toy is gonzo, with resultant pain of loss inflicted only on the second kid. There has to be a better way to calm the kids than to steal from them. At least, just put the toy on a top shelf for the day (?) Darwin's Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) {decvax,linus,ihnp4,ima,wjh12,wanginst}!bbncca!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201x356 "Selmer MarkVI, Otto Link 5*, and VanDoren Java Cut."