GMS@psuvm.BITNET (07/23/85)
Regarding the following:
>>I'm also in favor of astrological software appearing in net.astro.software,
>>being a superset of that required for astronomy,and in days of old, the
>>two sciences being indistinguishable.
>>
>> Sunny
I'll probably be flamed by the horoscope-watchers on the net, but I would
vehemently object to having 'astrological' and astronomical software
in the same newsgroup.
I realize that in olden days the two disciplines were indistinguishible,
just as medicine and blood-letting were also indistinguishible, but surely
noone would suggest having both medical and blood-letting programs (are
there any?) on the same newsgroup.
Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup
named net.astro.superstition ?
Gerry Santoro
Penn State University
. . . !psuvax1!santoro
. . . !psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!gms
rdp@teddy.UUCP (07/23/85)
In article <1967GMS@psuvm> GMS@psuvm.BITNET writes: >Regarding the following: > >>>I'm also in favor of astrological software appearing in net.astro.software, >>>being a superset of that required for astronomy,and in days of old, the >>>two sciences being indistinguishable. >>> >>> Sunny > >I'll probably be flamed by the horoscope-watchers on the net, but I would >vehemently object to having 'astrological' and astronomical software >in the same newsgroup. > >Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup >named net.astro.superstition ? > >Gerry Santoro >Penn State University As the person who originally suggested the exchange of astronomical software, I must agree that only astronomical software, not that based on lore or non-demonstrable pseudo-sciences (this not meant as an insult), is appropriate for this news group. Sorry, astrology lovers, but astrology is NOT a scientific discipline, as it does not stand up to the rigors of the scientific method (hypothesis formulation, testing, verification). Let's exchange astronomical software only, and those who are interested in astrology should form an appropriate news group. As an aside, I do happen to have an astrological ephemeris program written in (I think) DEC-10 Fortran. I have never had the occasion to try it out. If anybody REALLY wants it, send me mail and I'll see if I can arrange to rid myself of it.... I mean get you a copy :-). Dick Pierce
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (07/26/85)
GMS@psuvm.BITNET in <1967GMS@psuvm> sez:
>Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup
>named net.astro.superstition ?
>
>Gerry Santoro
>Penn State University
>. . . !psuvax1!santoro
>. . . !psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!gms
>
No, no. Post it to net.sources.games.
--
------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are
| dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em-
| an engihacker @ | ployer, my pets, my plants, my boss, or the
| at&t computer systems division | s.a. of any computer upon which I may hack.
| skokie, illinois |
| "go for it" | Path: ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy
-------------------------------- or: ..!ihnp4!iheds!ttbcad!levyrastaman@ihdev.UUCP (Floyd Hydrozoan) (07/26/85)
In article <1296@eagle.UUCP> mjs@eagle.UUCP (M.J.Shannon) writes: >> >I'm also in favor of astrological software appearing in net.astro.software, >... no >matter what my opinion of those beliefs is. How about a >little common courtesy? >-- How about net.astrology if the demand warrants it? That way we can keep the "Pax Netica". I'd hate to see this group tied up for debunking. ihnp4!ihdev!rastaman
bw@hp-pcd.UUCP (bw) (07/26/85)
Seeing that astronomy had its tumor removed, I see no reason to introduce the malignancy again. When astronomers are required to support themselves again by casting horoscopes for the superstitious, then I can see putting astrological nonsense in this notesfile. But until then, maybe net.astro.superstitious is a good place for astrology.
canopus@amdahl.UUCP (Alpha Carinae) (07/26/85)
> >>I'm also in favor of astrological software appearing in net.astro.software, > >> Sunny > Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup > named net.astro.superstition ? > Gerry Santoro Sorry. We already have a net.jokes. -- Frank Dibbell (408-746-6493) ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,sun}!amdahl!canopus Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA [This is the obligatory disclaimer..] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "This Starship Captain... he reads the very thoughts in my head!"
mjs@eagle.UUCP (M.J.Shannon) (07/29/85)
I don't believe Sunny is suggesting that any astronomers cast any horoscopes, and I'm certainly not, but the reason I (strongly) support the inclusion of astrological software in this group (or net.astro.software or whatever) is that the bulk of astrological software deals with exactly what interests some astronomers: geocentric positions of the planets. The observing I do is Earth based, thus geocentric positions are of great value. There are also some astrological programs out there that calculate geocentric positions of the major asteroids. (I know of at least one such program originally developed at Cooper Union (NYC) and subsequently refined at Stevens' Institute of Technology (Hoboken, NJ).) I care nothing for the astrological value of such programs, but the astronomical value is rather high. (Don't argue, post your "pure" astronomical code. That's the only basis on which I may change my mind.) I'm interested in the calculations, not horoscopes, and if some of you would pull your noses off the ceiling, you might discover the usefulness of code developed for astrology. Haven't any of you ever used code from a program whose purpose was unrelated to yours, just to save development time? I try to do so whenever possible -- why must we all reinvent the wheel? -- Marty Shannon UUCP: ihnp4!eagle!mjs Phone: +1 201 522 6063
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (07/29/85)
Since replying to your mail failed, I'll have to post to contact you...
To get a copy of your astrological software, I can either mail you a
blank 1/2" reel of standard 9track 1600bpi computer tape, or you can send
it via Usenet mail
in any case, thanks for your assistance, and looking forward to eventually
compiling some code!
Sunny
--
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)gnome@olivee.UUCP (Gary Traveis) (07/30/85)
> >>I'm also in favor of astrological software appearing in net.astro.software, > >> Sunny > > I'll probably be flamed by the horoscope-watchers on the net, but I would > vehemently object to having 'astrological' and astronomical software > in the same newsgroup. > > I realize that in olden days the two disciplines were indistinguishible, > just as medicine and blood-letting were also indistinguishible, but surely > noone would suggest having both medical and blood-letting programs (are > there any?) on the same newsgroup. > > Gerry Santoro Actually "modern medicine" is starting to use leeches to relieve pressure from newly re-attached fingers and limbs. Why? Because the rebuilt circulatory system can't withstand the backpressure built-up in a formerly lifeless appendage. Mother nature comes to the rescue again! Anyway, I would like to see astrological programs posted to this mewsgroup. After all, I can't forsee a crush of programs flooding this category (counting both astrological and astronomical programs). Gary
djg@nsc-pdc.UUCP (Derek Godfrey) (07/30/85)
> As the person who originally suggested the exchange of astronomical software, > I must agree that only astronomical software, not that based on lore > or non-demonstrable pseudo-sciences (this not meant as an insult), is > appropriate for this news group. Sorry, astrology lovers, but astrology is > NOT a scientific discipline, as it does not stand up to the rigors of > the scientific method (hypothesis formulation, testing, verification). > > Let's exchange astronomical software only, and those who are interested > in astrology should form an appropriate news group. I agree that astrology is not a scientific discipline however I must point out that most of the calculations necessary for a Natal and progressed Horoscopes have a firm bases in astromny. (prehaps they were once related). -:) Anyone who doubts this should try calculating sideral time from local times throughout the U.S for that last 200 years. Converting geographic to geocentric co-ordinates, R.A to ecliptic points and interpolation of the positions of the lumminaries. It may suprise some you that people alive today can figure these without the use of even pen or paper let alone an electronic device to a fair degree of accracy. Anyone who charges $100 for such information can't be all that wrong! (Maybe they don't have to be that right?)
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (07/31/85)
> > >>I'm also in favor of astrological software appearing in net.astro.software, > > >> Sunny > > > Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup > > named net.astro.superstition ? > > Gerry Santoro > > Sorry. We already have a net.jokes. > -- > Frank Dibbell (408-746-6493) ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,sun}!amdahl!canopus > Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA [This is the obligatory disclaimer..] > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > "This Starship Captain... he reads the very thoughts in my head!" Alright you clowns... my suggestion was serious. If you don't want the software, don't copy and compile it. I don't make fun of your religious convictions, don't make fun of mine, as this is neither net.flame net.jokes net.religion Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (07/31/85)
> GMS@psuvm.BITNET in <1967GMS@psuvm> sez: > > >Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup > >named net.astro.superstition ? > > > >Gerry Santoro > >Penn State University > >. . . !psuvax1!santoro > >. . . !psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!gms > > > > No, no. Post it to net.sources.games. > -- Astrology is NOT a game, bozo. Allow me to make an analogy. Before the invention of the geiger counter or photographic film, I could have told you that I believed in a mystical and magical force known as "nuclear radiation", and that if you weren't careful, it could make you sick and die. And you could have laughed in my face and made fun of me, because I wouldn't have been able to prove its existance to you in your "scientific" laboratory. But, years later, with the help of a piece of electronics which you *do* believe in, I can prove to you that some chemicals have this mystical force. If you didn't believe in electronic instruments, or understand how they worked, even the geiger counter would be insufficient to "make" you believe in nuclear radiation. Just because I hadn't invented some instrument which *you* could believe in, you could scoff and "scientifically" claim I was a fraud and that such forces as "nuclear radiation" existed only in my imagination. So it is with every other type of force in the universe for which we have not yet invented measuring instruments. Without the microscope, you wouldn't believe in DNA. Without the telescope you wouldn't believe in the existance of the planet Pluto. Without an instrument to measure other things I can't prove their existance to you. That does not mean they don't exist, or that they exert no influence over your daily life. Astrology is easy to malign if you look at it only to the depth of reading you "horoscope" in your daily newspaper, because it only examines the position of the Sun, and only breaks the population down into 12 groups... so the gross stereotypes associated with your "Sun sign" are easily "disproved". If you can truly say that you've investigated Astrology in depth, plotted all the planets and constellations and fully delineated their influences on you, and still find them lacking, then you might try one of the *other* branches of astrology, of which there are no less than three. Horarary, Siderial, etc. So it is with all paranormal and psychic and spiritual factors in life... the only measuring instruments we have for them are our own minds. Just as some people have 20/20 vision and can see a tiger charging them from far enough away to avoid death, while others would have died by now without the advantage of the scientific assist of glass lenses, some people have better psychic vision than others. If you don't personally experience psychic phenomena, that doesn't mean others don't. So when somebody with better eyesight than you says "Run, there's a tiger chasing us", it might behoove you to not be a disbeliever. Just because you don't find astrology relavent to your lifestyle, doesn't mean it has no signifigance to others around you. So get off your pedestal of scientific self righteousness, and acknowledge that there may be things which exist despite the fact that *you* don't have an instrument *you* believe in, in your laboratory. Lack of proof of existance does *NOT* constitute proof of lack of existance. Or did your scientific training skip over basic logic? Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) (07/31/85)
[]
OK folks. I swore I wouldn't post on this, but let me make a
few points.
1) Regardless of any deep historical links between astrology
and astronomy I think we can all agree that they are quite
distinct at present. This does not depend on whether or
not you take astrology seriously.
2) If we start posting astrological stuff here then we will
get postings like:
"Astrology is *shit*.
"No it isn't you arrogant son-of-a-bitch."
"Your mother wears army boots."
"Yours smokes mushrooms"
Please spare us all.
3) If there is sufficient demand, a net.astrology should be formed.
If not, please take it to net.misc.
Enough.
--
"Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac
Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
Department of Astronomy
University of Texasfreeman@spar.UUCP (Jay Freeman) (07/31/85)
[The line-eater is a scorpio] In article <2522@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: >Alright you clowns... > my suggestion was serious. > If you don't want the software, don't copy and compile it. > I don't make fun of your religious convictions, > don't make fun of mine, as this is neither > net.flame > net.jokes > net.religion > > Sunny ... but it _is_ net.astro. I suggest that astrology has little place here. -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research)(canonical disclaimer)
nyssa@abnji.UUCP (nyssa of traken) (08/01/85)
>> No, no. Post it to net.sources.games. >> -- > >Astrology is NOT a game, bozo. Allow me to make an analogy. > >Before the invention of the geiger counter or photographic film, >I could have told you that I believed in a mystical and magical force >known as "nuclear radiation", and that if you weren't careful, it could >make you sick and die. And you could have laughed in my face and made >fun of me, because I wouldn't have been able to prove its existance to >you in your "scientific" laboratory. But, years later, with the help >of a piece of electronics which you *do* believe in, I can prove to >you that some chemicals have this mystical force. If you didn't >believe in electronic instruments, or understand how they worked, even >the geiger counter would be insufficient to "make" you believe in >nuclear radiation. Allow me to make an analogy. 150 years ago, if you spoke of light travelling through the "ether," you would have been considered a scientist. To-day, say that to a physicist, and you will be laughed at. I have no opinion myself on whether or not astrological software should be posted to a net.astro.sources, but I do feel that Sunny's analogy is poor. -- James C Armstrong, Jnr. ihnp4!abnji!nyssa "You have a primary and secondary reproductive cycle. It is an inefficient system; you should chnage it." -Who said it, what episode?
paulh@tektronix.UUCP (Paul Hoefling) (08/01/85)
[Sorry to post this, but I couldn't seem to get through by mail...-plh] > As an aside, I do happen to have an astrological ephemeris program written > in (I think) DEC-10 Fortran. I have never had the occasion to try it out. > If anybody REALLY wants it, send me mail and I'll see if I can arrange > to rid myself of it.... I mean get you a copy :-). I would be very interested in a copy of this, can you send it via e-mail ? -- Paul Hoefling Information Pack Rat uucp: {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax,zehntel}!tektronix!paulh
GMS@psuvm.BITNET (08/02/85)
I must admit that Marty has a point. The calculations of positions of
solar system objects produced by 'astrological' software is, itself, of
some value to astronomers. (Althou I've not set seen the argument, on the net,
that the *interpretations* that 'astrologers' draw from these positions has
any value.)
As a Computer Scientist/Astronomer I fear I associate the notion of
'astrological software' with those machines we occasionally see at shopping
malls that advertise 'Your Horoscope Done by Computer'. In these cases I
strongly resent (1) the implication that a horoscope is at all meaningful
(I really am bummed by the thought that some people base their LIVES on this
stuff!), and (2) the implication that, because it is generated by a computer
that it is somehow more valid than a human-generated horoscope.
Some of my best friends are into astrology - really! Nevertheless I would
suggest that anything that goes at all beyond the calculations, and goes
into interpretation, be sent to another newsgroup so as not to
*contaminate* net.astro (just kidding Linda & Chuck! :-)
(I do know of an I Ching program for the IBM-PC if anyone cares.)
Where do the flying-saucer and phenominology people post? Perhaps that
would be a good place for the interpretive astrological software?
Gerry Santoro . . . psuvax1!santoro
Penn State University . . . psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!gms
"God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh!"
(I think Voltaire said this, but am not sure)
canopus@amdahl.UUCP (Alpha Carinae) (08/02/85)
> I don't believe Sunny is suggesting that any astronomers cast any horoscopes, > and I'm certainly not, but the reason I (strongly) support the inclusion of > astrological software in this group (or net.astro.software or whatever) is that > the bulk of astrological software deals with exactly what interests some > astronomers: geocentric positions of the planets. [...] > Marty Shannon There exists a newsgroup already for the posting of *any* software. It is called net.sources. Astrological and Astronomical software is more appropriately posted there. -- Frank Dibbell (408-746-6493) ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,sun}!amdahl!canopus Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA [This is the obligatory disclaimer..] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "This Starship Captain... he reads the very thoughts in my head!"
mff@wuphys.UUCP (Swamp Thing) (08/02/85)
In article <2524@sun.UUCP> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: >> GMS@psuvm.BITNET in <1967GMS@psuvm> sez: >> >> >Might I suggest instead that astrology software be posted to a newsgroup >> >named net.astro.superstition ? >> >> No, no. Post it to net.sources.games. >> -- > >Astrology is NOT a game, bozo. Allow me to make an analogy. > >So get off your pedestal of scientific self righteousness, and acknowledge >that there may be things which exist despite the fact that *you* don't have >an instrument *you* believe in, in your laboratory. > >Lack of proof of existance does *NOT* constitute proof of lack of existance. >Or did your scientific training skip over basic logic? > > Sunny >-- >{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) Enough is enough! (or too much, perhaps) The biggest hole in this "arguement" is that it applies equally well to "prove" that the moon is made of cheese, that litle green men live on Mars, and anything else you might care to mention. I'm not going to accept the existence of some hair-brained scheme unless YOU can prove that it is correct. The burden of prove is on the person proposing the "theory", not the other way around. This reminds me of the people who believe that UFO's are aliens in spaceships. There arguement is that, while most sightings can be expalined away, there is some percentage (say 5%) which cannot. Well, one could just as well argue that, while most automobile accidents can be explained, some small percentage cannot be. Therefore, the ones that can't MUST be caused by aliens from another planet! If you want to accept astrology as fact, go ahead. But don't expect other people to, and PLEASE don't discuss it in a newsgroup dedicated to something else. Mabye we should change the name to net.astron, to remove any ambiguity. Mark F. Flynn Department of Physics Washington University St. Louis, MO 63130 ihnp4!wuphys!mff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "There is no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact, it's all dark." P. Floyd
kanner@tymix.UUCP (Herb Kanner) (08/02/85)
>Astrology is NOT a game, bozo. Allow me to make an analogy. > >Before the invention of the geiger counter or photographic film, >I could have told you that I believed in a mystical and magical force >known as "nuclear radiation", and that if you weren't careful, it could >make you sick and die. And you could have laughed in my face and made >fun of me, because I wouldn't have been able to prove its existance to >you in your "scientific" laboratory. But, years later, with the help of >a piece of electronics which you *do* believe in, I can prove to you that >some chemicals have this mystical force. If you didn't believe in electronic >instruments, or understand how they worked, even the geiger counter would be >insufficient to "make" you believe in nuclear radiation. > I have only quoted a small part of the article to povide context. Without intending to be sarcastic, and with utmost seriousness, I suggest that it might be very enlightening to think about how clear distinctions between the following four words might be made: A. Religion B. Superstition C. Science D. Pseudo-science -- Herb Kanner Tymnet, Inc. ...!hplabs!oliveb!tymix!kanner
demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) (08/08/85)
> > Alright you clowns... > my suggestion was serious. > If you don't want the software, don't copy and compile it. > I don't make fun of your religious convictions, > don't make fun of mine, as this is neither > net.flame > net.jokes > net.religion > > Sunny > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) Oh, back off Sunny! What did you expect would happen when you posted that? (You listening Marty...?) No one is denying that astronomy owes much to its roots in atronomy. No one is denying that astrologers make the same orbit and motion calculations that astronomers do, however... Marty, your claim about "re-inventing the wheel" is unfounded. I defy you to show me an astrology program that makes any calculations that you can't get in a similar astronomy package. Since this is astrology's last remaining common ground with astronomy, there is no reason to include astrological software in with astronomical. And Sunny, stop being so damn sensitive. If you feel people have made fun of your posting (which, admittedly they have...which is a pity) then you should have followed your own advice and posted this request in net.religion! Most astronomers are sensitive about astrology...most people know that. (Including the astrologers that I know...) So why did you post that request anyway.... -- --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo "...That's enough, that's enough! Television's takin' its toll. Turn it off, turn it off! Give me the remote control! I've been nice! I've been good! Please don't do this to me! I've been nice, turn it off, I don't wanna hav'ta see... ...'The Brady Bunch!'"
mjs@eagle.UUCP (M.J.Shannon) (08/11/85)
> Oh, back off Sunny! What did you expect would happen when you > posted that? (You listening Marty...?) No one is denying that > astronomy owes much to its roots in atronomy. No one is denying > that astrologers make the same orbit and motion calculations > that astronomers do, however... > > Marty, your claim about "re-inventing the wheel" is unfounded. > I defy you to show me an astrology program that makes any > calculations that you can't get in a similar astronomy package. > -- > --- Rob DeMillo Yes, I am listening, and I stand by my previous postings on the subject for 1 very important reason: I haven't seen any astronomy packages (granted, I haven't spent every waking hour on the search), and I have seen (and adapted) an astrology package that gives me precise (if not incredibly accurate) observational information. In fact, I'd have posted my hackery if the code wasn't already copyrighted and trade secreted, etc. Please disprove my sample (of 1) by posting a list of packages and their suppliers, even those that cost bucks. The 2 books you cited in another message are fine for starters (but, just as the algorithms in the astrology program are applicable to astronomy, those presented in the books you cited are also undoubtedly applicable to astrology). -- Marty Shannon UUCP: ihnp4!eagle!mjs Phone: +1 201 522 6063 Warped people are throwbacks from the days of the United Federation of Planets.