act@pur-phy.UUCP (Alex C. Tselis) (12/04/84)
I am a newcomer to the system, and I've been having a lot of fun with it, seeing all sorts of discussions about all sorts of things, with a good deal of polemic. I noted somewhere that someone named Ben David (yiri?) mentioned a discussion concerning Mensa. Did this have something to do with furniture? Or is this the organization of folks with high I.Q.s? Can anyone enlighten me on this, or give me references to track the thing down? It looks like there may be a good deal of fun discussion in it. If this was about furniture, forget it.
lffast@watrose.UUCP (lffast) (12/05/84)
Discussion of Mensa the furniture or Mensa the high I.Q. furniture would be one and the same. The I.Q. test was originally developed in England to "Prove" that the upper class were "Inherently" smarter than the rest of the population and therefore deserved schooling. All you need to have a high I.Q. is to practice writing I.Q. tests. If this doesn't provoke comment, nothing will. Larry Fast ( University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario ) "These opinions are mine ( but I'd never admit it publicly )!
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe) (12/06/84)
[Is this line _really_ necessary?] >Discussion of Mensa the furniture or Mensa the high I.Q. furniture would >be one and the same. Am I missing something here or is this really meaningless? >The I.Q. test was originally developed in >England to "Prove" that the upper class were "Inherently" smarter >than the rest of the population and therefore deserved schooling. The IQ test was originally developed in France by Binet at the request of the French government. They wanted a method to sort out children as bright, average, and dull so they could establish a tracking system in their schools. (I make no comment on the pros/cons of this policy.) Binet's test was later refined and re-normed by Terman of Stanford University and became the Stanford-Binet, possibly the best known IQ test in the world. >All you need to have a high I.Q. is to practice writing I.Q. tests. Sorry, not true. This may enable you to perform at your best when taking a test and teach you good test-taking technique, but it won't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. You can maximize your score this way, but if your best is 130 it won't get you a 160. >If this doesn't provoke comment, nothing will. > Larry Fast ( University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario ) >"These opinions are mine ( but I'd never admit it publicly )! -- The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Opinions expressed here are my own Transaction Technology, Inc. and unrelated to anyone else's. 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 United States (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 ...{garfield,lasspvax,linus,cmcl2,seismo}!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
wfi@unc.UUCP (William F. Ingogly) (12/09/84)
There's an excellent discussion of the history of intelligence testing in Stephen Jay Gould's book, "The Mismeasure Of Man." The book's major theme is the (mis)use of science and statistics to provide a theoretical underpinning for prejudice. I'd suggest that anyone who wants to converse intelligently (:-)) on this topic check out Mr. Gould's book; I found it a fascinating and easy read. It's worth looking at even if you strongly disagree with his political positions. The problem with tests like the Stanford-Binet and its ilk is that they overstress some capabilities and understress or ignore others. This results in a warped evaluation of the abilities of certain individuals to contribute to society. Creativity, empathy, and non-written verbal skills are all given short shrift by these traditional evaluation methods. Joining Mensa requires a measure of faith in I.Q. testing as a method for evaluating human ability to reason and function in society. What's dangerous about this faith is the implied value judgement regarding human worth that accompanies membership in such an elitist organization.
greg@ncr-tp.UUCP (Greg Noel) (12/11/84)
In article <156@ttidcc.UUCP> hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe) writes: >>Discussion of Mensa the furniture or Mensa the high I.Q. furniture would >>be one and the same. > >Am I missing something here or is this really meaningless? Jerry, I'm upset with you! A Mensan that doesn't know how the organization got its name! Now what would Margot Seitelman think of that, after all the literature she's sent your way? The word "Mensa" is Latin for "table" to indicate the philosophy of the interactions -- a table around which we all sit to discuss our opinions. (Well, some of us stand and shout, but the idea is there.....) BTW, I'm a Mensan, and I don't think a "Mensan" newsgroup would be very useful. Now, a group to discuss matters related to intellegence (or lack thereof) might be useful, but that's a VERY different subject and should be discussed seperately (although I would think that it might be better used as a potential topic in a more general newsgroup -- was net.psychology ever started?). -- -- Greg Noel, NCR Torrey Pines Greg@ncr-tp.UUCP or Greg@nosc.ARPA
crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) (12/12/84)
Joining Mensa does not necessarily indicate any judgement of human worth as you suggest (and I get a little tired of people who make judgements of *my* motives on little-to-no evidence.) What joining Mensa usually indicates in lonliness! A desire to meet others with similar interests. The probability of meeting someone who is interested in certain things -- say reading serious fiction, or mathematical puzzles -- is much higher in a Mensa meeting than in a bowling club (although I met a very interesting and intelligent girl in a bowling club once, so the probability there is non-zero...) Even if all that IQ tests measure is the set of skills measured by IQ tests, the chances are good that people who score high will have similar interests. Now, a question : Does the phrase4 "an egalitarian bigot" have any meaning? -- Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)
geb@cadre.UUCP (12/13/84)
In my career in both physics and medicine, I have known an awful lot of smart people. None of the really smart ones were in mensa. The people I have known who joined mensa, have either been weird, or had bad inferiority complexes that they were trying to compensate for. One acquaintence joined because he wanted to meet some smart women. It didn't work out too well.
wfi@unc.UUCP (William F. Ingogly) (12/13/84)
Charlie, I wasn't objecting to the personal motives of any individual who belongs to Mensa. Many of the Mensa members I've known have been fine and sensitive people who, as you suggest, joined solely to meet people with like interests. An organization can be composed primarily of fine, upstanding citizens and still be objectionable on philosophical, political, or other grounds. I personally dislike the aims of the Republican party intensely; that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the company and friendship of Republicans, does it? [or Democrats, for that matter; equal time, eh? :-)] My personal belief is that the organization Mensa by its very nature encourages elitism, but that doesn't mean it requires its members to be elitist. Whether or not many or most of its members join the organization for other reasons is irrelevant, and I don't presume to judge them for their decisions. You're right about the difficulty of meeting persons with shared interests, especially for those of us who are rapidly approaching our 'mid-life crises.' It's a fairly easy matter if you're living in a university town, but it can be near-impossible in many locales. I just don't think Mensa is an appropriate response to this problem. Personally, I would have no difficulty with joining a special-interest club or group based on an interest in literature, say, or astronomy. But most groups based on special interests that I'm acquainted with don't use some arbitrary measure of Quality X to determine membership. By the way, I think phrases like "egalitarian bigot" are counterproductive at best in discussions like this. But then I've always had a hard time getting into flaming for its own sake.
larryk@tektronix.UUCP (Larry Kohn) (12/15/84)
In article <5170@duke.UUCP> crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: > >Now, a question : Does the phrase4 "an egalitarian bigot" have >any meaning? >-- Yes, in the sense of being obstinate in one's devotion to human equality.
gino@voder.UUCP (Gino Bloch) (12/15/84)
[only dumb bugs eat lines like this one] > Joining Mensa requires a measure of faith in I.Q. testing as a method > for evaluating human ability to reason and function in society. I submit that in fact joining Mensa requires a measure of faith in IQ testing as a method for evaluating eligibility to join Mensa. -- Gene E. Bloch (...!nsc!voder!gino) Try to understand.
rcd@opus.UUCP (12/19/84)
> My personal belief is that the organization Mensa by its very nature > encourages elitism, but that doesn't mean it requires its members to > be elitist. Whether or not many or most of its members join the > organization for other reasons is irrelevant, and I don't presume to > judge them for their decisions. Of course, if you consider that one of the useful effects of Mensa might be to help its members deal with the misconception that a claim to high IQ is elitist, you've got an interesting paradox. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile.
charliep@v1.UUCP (Charlie Perkins) (12/21/84)
-------------------------------
I think what's bugging people about Mensa is the tension between the
following two facts:
a: I.Q. is supposed to be "inherited" and not "earned", and
b: People are therefore excluded from membership for no fault
of their own. This is very "Un-American".
What's worse is that exclusion is taken as a clear indication of
"inferiority" -- much as if a black person were excluded from a
whites-only assocation and then regarded as second class because
he was not "in".
Probably one reason that many people join Mensa is to try to get a
better understanding of themselves. This is especially true if they
have somehow received special treatment during their lives and therefore
feel less able to relate to the people they encounter during their
everyday lives. This effect could be exaggerated by the strong
taboo associated with discussing one's relative "intelligence" with
others. Even people in Mensa never do that. So, a lot of people may
never become really comfortable with the subject.
I suspect that a large proportion of netnews readers would be welcomed
into Mensa. I'm sure many would then find other poorly understood
groups to denigrate.
A thought: On a broader scale of things, the difference between
A. Einstein and (say) R. Reagan is really not that much.
Charlie P.
--
Charlie Perkins, IBM T.J. Watson Research
philabs!v1!charliep, perk%YKTVMX.BITNET@berkeley, perk.yktvmx.ibm@csnet-relaysteiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (12/23/84)
*** The problem with Mensa is that is not exclusive enough. What we need is a net.bohemian.grove. Talk about exclusive! -- scc!steiny Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382 109 Torrey Pine Terr. Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060 ihnp4!pesnta -\ fortune!idsvax -> scc!steiny ucbvax!twg -/