hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (12/18/84)
I knew we'd get around to this sooner or later ...
As usual, the point has been raised that Mensa is an elitist organization.
This is true. It is also true of highschool football teams, symphony
orchestras, and the company you probably work for (do you seriously think
they hire anyone who walks in the door?). Any organization which sets a
standard for membership is an elitist organization. I don't hear anyone
condemning the American Bar Association for being elitist (you have to pass
a bar exam to join). I've never been able to pass a calculus course. Is
the American Mathematical Society to be criticized for denying me
membership?
We live in an elitist society. To claim anything else is pure hypocrisy.
The concept "that all men are created equal" has a fine, high-minded,
idealistic ring to it. It is also utter nonsense. The fact is that all
people are not created equal and they certainly don't become equal as they
grow older.
If you're going to criticize Mensa then you also have to criticize Phi Beta
Kappa, Psi Chi, and all the other scholastic honor societies. How many of
you belong to one or more of these? Should I blank out the "Summa Cum
Laude" on my diploma because it's un-egalitarian? ( :-) You should live so
long.) Who out there belongs to the ACM (takes two recommendations to join)
or the IEEE (full membership requires an engineering degree)?
There! That should put the cat amongst the pidgeons.
--
The Polymath
(Jerry Hollombe) Opinions expressed here are my own
Transaction Technology, Inc. and unrelated to anyone else's.
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA 90405
United States
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
...{garfield,lasspvax,linus,cmcl2,seismo}!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombesteiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (12/21/84)
** Suppose someone started a "net.mensa," or better yet, a "net.hi-iq." How would it work? If it was unmoderated, then anyone could post to it. Imagine that some person who had not taken a qualifying test recently or, if they had, had not had any Mensa applications handy and had failed to join Mensa. Suppose this person (who might have a low-iq for all anyone knows) got interested in a discussion and posted to the group? How would anyone know? I imagine that there would be anarchy. I am sure well meaning people who took tests many years ago might forget their scores upwards. You know, someone that was actually in the top 2.5 % might forget and think that they were actually in the top 2% in the same way someone that was 6 feet and 3/4 inches might forget and think that he was 6 foot 1. If it was moderated, what would the moderator have to do? Check with Mensa to see if a poster was really qualified to post to the group? Mensa is a social club. There are no other groups on the net that are by members of a club. Sometimes groups or organizations publish the times of meetings, classes, and even parties in regional subgroups. These local distributions act as bulliten boards. I doubt most people would mind articles about Mensa meetings clearly labeled "Mensa Meeting Announcment," distributed appropriately. No wonder people say it is elitist, there is nothing else to say about it. It is a boring topic. If people think it is wonderful and hunky dorey, then the conversation is over if they don't ... boring. If someone accuses a Mensa member of being an "elitist", what could be better? After all, it is an elite organization, only the elite can join. That is why they joined, right? To be members of an elite organization. Saying that Mensa is elitist is hardely an insult, that is the whole point. Tautologies are make dull conversation. There is little to say about Mensa. -- scc!steiny Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382 109 Torrey Pine Terr. Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060 ihnp4!pesnta -\ fortune!idsvax -> scc!steiny ucbvax!twg -/
geb@cadre.UUCP (12/23/84)
Mensa isn't in the same category as Phi Beta Kappa. One is an honorary which is given to university students for high grades. Very few go to more than the first meeting, those who continue active in it are either deans or indeed have mensa tendencies. Mensa has to be sought out. No accomplishment is necessary, other than having taken an IQ test. Phi Beta Kappa is mainly useful for resumes. Anyone who puts Mensa membership on their resume should have their head examined, as they should be able to see from the high level of hostility of the net people. Certainly Phi Beta Kappa and the like are anachronisms also nowadays, since really they count for very little in my experience, since grades, standard exam scores and references are more easily interpreted in evaluating a candidate for graduate or meical schoo.
barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (12/25/84)
[] From ttidcc!hollombe (Jerry Hollombe): > As usual, the point has been raised that Mensa is an elitist organization. > This is true. It is also true of highschool football teams, symphony > orchestras, and the company you probably work for (do you seriously think > they hire anyone who walks in the door?). Any organization which sets a > standard for membership is an elitist organization. I don't hear anyone > condemning the American Bar Association for being elitist (you have to pass > a bar exam to join). I've never been able to pass a calculus course. Is > the American Mathematical Society to be criticized for denying me > membership? The other organizations you mention could be called elitist, but their standards for membership are based on *accomplishment*, not innate ability. > We live in an elitist society. To claim anything else is pure hypocrisy. > The concept "that all men are created equal" has a fine, high-minded, > idealistic ring to it. It is also utter nonsense. The fact is that all > people are not created equal and they certainly don't become equal as they > grow older. My precise point. The premise of mensa seems to be that you qualify for membership by what you *are*, not what you've done. Formally, you could argue that you qualify by the accomplishment of scoring well on certain tests, but, as you here imply, that is not the premise of mensa. The premise is that these tests actually measure something meaningful about you, something innate. I think there are two things about mensa that some people find objectionable. One is the idea of a group which restricts membership according to traits that are (at least supposedly) innate. Recall the recent debate about the Association for Women in Computing (may be wrong name). Some objected to it as sexist (form of elitism) if it only admits women. The other problem is the tests, themselves. Do they measure *anything* beyond the ability to do well on certain specific types of tests? Or is it possible that mensa is not only elitist, but is based on a completely arbitrary measurement, and is thus a false elitism? Having just read Gould's THE MISMEASURE OF MAN, my doubts about the worth of IQ tests are particularly acute at the moment. Actually, I don't object to mensa; even went to a mensa open house, once, to check it out. But I do disagree with the implication in your article that mensa members are an elite of any sort. The question of what IQ tests actually measure (beyond one's skill at taking IQ tests) is still far too open to permit that conclusion. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (12/28/84)
> > As usual, the point has been raised that Mensa is an elitist organization. > > This is true. It is also true of highschool football teams, symphony > > orchestras,... > ... > The other organizations you mention could be called elitist, > but their standards for membership are based on *accomplishment*, not > innate ability. > ...The premise of mensa seems to be that you qualify > for membership by what you *are*, not what you've done. Formally, > you could argue that you qualify by the accomplishment of scoring well > on certain tests, but, as you here imply, that is not the premise > of mensa. The premise is that these tests actually measure something > meaningful about you, something innate... Of course, there's plenty of room to question whether the tests measure anything meaningful about something as ephemeral as "intelligence". They ATTEMPT to do so and seem to succeed a little bit...if there were better ways to determine intelligence, they'd be used. > I think there are two things about mensa that some people find > objectionable. One is the idea of a group which restricts membership > according to traits that are (at least supposedly) innate... The argument about innate abilities vs. accomplishments is hair-splitting. Measuring a person by accomplishments can be every bit as empty as measuring by (apparent) innate ability. What constitutes a "meaningful" accomplishment, anyway? Moreover, one of Mensa's real concerns is in helping people deal with the (supposed) innate abilities they have, which they may often be unable to use as they feel they should. If an organization wants to try to deal with something like the disparity between ability and accomplishment, it seems only logical to base membership on ability. In fact, the angry reaction that some folks (NOT the parent article to this one, though) have to Mensa and its members indicates some need for its existence. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile.
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe) (12/28/84)
[] Now we've got the discussion perking along nicely, I suppose it's time to turn down the flames and try to generate some light. So ... >From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) >Subject: Re: Mensa and elitism >Message-ID: <722@ames.UUCP> > From ttidcc!hollombe (Jerry Hollombe): >> As usual, the point has been raised that Mensa is an elitist organization. >> This is true. It is also true of highschool football teams, symphony >> orchestras, and the company you probably work for (do you seriously think >> they hire anyone who walks in the door?). Any organization which sets a >> standard for membership is an elitist organization. I don't hear anyone >> condemning the American Bar Association for being elitist (you have to pass >> a bar exam to join). I've never been able to pass a calculus course. Is >> the American Mathematical Society to be criticized for denying me >> membership? > The other organizations you mention could be called elitist, >but their standards for membership are based on *accomplishment*, not >innate ability. One doesn't usually find any "97 pound weaklings" on even a highschool football team. Neither will you find any tin ears in a symphony orchestra. These are innate abilities. Whether what intelligence tests measure is innate ability or acquired ability remains somewhat controversial. (More on this anon.) >> We live in an elitist society. To claim anything else is pure hypocrisy. >> The concept "that all men are created equal" has a fine, high-minded, >> idealistic ring to it. It is also utter nonsense. The fact is that all >> people are not created equal and they certainly don't become equal as they >> grow older. > > My precise point. The premise of mensa seems to be that you qualify >for membership by what you *are*, not what you've done. Formally, >you could argue that you qualify by the accomplishment of scoring well >on certain tests, but, as you here imply, that is not the premise >of mensa. The premise is that these tests actually measure something >meaningful about you, something innate. The question of what exactly "intelligence tests" measure is an interesting and controversial one. What follows here is my opinion, based on the knowledge and experience acquired while earning a Master's degree in Clinical Psychology. I don't think there really is such a thing as an "intelligence test". To understand why, try to think up a good definition of intelligence (yes, I know it's in the dictionary). It's difficult to devise a test for something when even the experts can't agree on a working definition of it. What IQ tests actually measure might be called "academic potential" -- how likely the person taking the test is to do well in academic activities at the time of taking the test. This was the stated purpose of the original Binet test which put the term "IQ" into our vocabulary. It is also the purpose of such tests as the SAT, ACT, GRE, etc. These tests have been refined and tuned over years of comparing test predicted performance with actual performance until they are probably the most accurate psychological instruments in existence (about 70%). There is no clear cut answer to whether what these tests measure is innate or learned. It seems intuitively obvious that both nature and nurture play a significant role in test performance. What part each plays and which is most influential remains controversial. >arbitrary measurement, and is thus a false elitism? Having just read >Gould's THE MISMEASURE OF MAN, my doubts about the worth of IQ tests >are particularly acute at the moment. I haven't read Gould's book, so I can't comment on it. There does seem to be much paranoia about "IQ" testing in the world, much of it caused by ignorance and misunderstanding of the techniques and their purpose. The tests are also misused in many cases which perhaps justifies some of the paranoia. > Actually, I don't object to mensa; even went to a mensa open >house, once, to check it out. But I do disagree with the implication >in your article that mensa members are an elite of any sort. The question >of what IQ tests actually measure (beyond one's skill at taking IQ tests) >is still far too open to permit that conclusion. Actually, it's everyone else who calls Mensa an elitist organization. I was just agreeing for the sake of argument. Certainly, the members of Mensa are a highly selected group. Whether this makes them an elite is debatable. It's the rest of the world who labels them as such and then resents them for it. Mensa per se expresses no opinion as to what the scores may actually mean (Mensa officially has no opinions at all on any subject), though its very existence implies they mean something. The sheer range of tests accepted by Mensa as evidence of qualification for membership would seem to acknowledge the uncertainty inherent in the definition and measurement of intelligence. I think that's enough for now. I'm dialing in from home this week and screen editing at 300 baud is bloody hard work. Hope everyone had a happy holiday season. -- The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Opinions expressed here are my own Transaction Technology, Inc. and unrelated to anyone else's. 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 United States (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 ...{garfield,lasspvax,linus,cmcl2,seismo}!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
west@utcsrgv.UUCP (Thomas L. West) (12/28/84)
barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: > From ttidcc!hollombe (Jerry Hollombe): >> As usual, the point has been raised that Mensa is an elitist organization. >> This is true. It is also true of highschool football teams, symphony >> orchestras, and the company you probably work for (do you seriously think >> they hire anyone who walks in the door?). Any organization which sets a >> standard for membership is an elitist organization. I don't hear anyone >> condemning the American Bar Association for being elitist (you have to pass >> a bar exam to join). I've never been able to pass a calculus course. Is >> the American Mathematical Society to be criticized for denying me >> membership? > > The other organizations you mention could be called elitist, >but their standards for membership are based on *accomplishment*, not >innate ability. What? I'd certainly claim that ability at math, music, languages or just about anything is an innate ability. One can accomplish more with determination and hard work, but the basic innate ability is STILL required. (The same is probably true for IQ tests (I agree with the original poster on that IQ tests don't measure a whole lot besides the ability to take IQ tests. Besides, what *is* IQ? According to what I've learned, measurement of intelligence is measured on about 9 different (and mostly independent axes) (actually most claim MANY more than 9). So how can a single figure do for a variable with probably 50 indices?)) However claiming that being a mathematician is just plain work without a lot of built in ability is, in my opinion, wrong. I know I couldn't be a mathematician in a million years no matter HOW much effort went into it. Mensa only differs in that innate ability alone can get you in (again, in theory). The other organizations are even MORE elitist. They require innate ability AND accomplishment. Tom West { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!west
geb@cadre.UUCP (12/28/84)
> Measuring a person by accomplishments can be every bit as empty as > measuring by (apparent) innate ability. What constitutes a "meaningful" > accomplishment, anyway? Well, how about winning a Nobel prize? Establishing a billion dollar corporation? Inventing a computer in your garage that mushrooms into a Forture 500 company? Writing a best-seller? That isn't to say a person who does these things is BETTER or smarter than other people, but I suspect it's a little more than just being lucky most of the time. IQ tests attempt to measure POTENTIAL, which seems useless without accomplishment. You can argue about the value of a person's accomplishments (say a Ph.D.) but you can't argue that they did accomplish something besides sit around a table and talk about how to overcome the burdens of being misunderstood because they're so gifted. Instead of hand-wringing with their fellow statospheric IQs maybe it would be better if they were out in the trenches rubbing shoulders with the masses to help raise the general level of those less fortunate. Please excuse the strong hyperbole, but it's to make a point.
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe) (12/31/84)
>From: geb@cadre.UUCP >Subject: Re: Mensa and elitism >Message-ID: <123@cadre.UUCP> > > Instead of >hand-wringing with their fellow statospheric IQs maybe it would >be better if they were out in the trenches rubbing shoulders with >the masses to help raise the general level of those less fortunate. It is not widely known, but Mensa sponsors various scholarships and supports the Mensa Educational Research Foundation which does research into the problems and educational needs of gifted children. There is also a national Gifted Children Special Interest Group which acts as a clearing house for relevant information. -- The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Opinions expressed here are my own Transaction Technology, Inc. and unrelated to anyone else's. 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 United States (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 ...{garfield,lasspvax,linus,cmcl2,seismo}!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
paul@umich.UUCP (01/11/85)
This mensa thing brings to mind the line 'people join clubs for the same reason they used to carry them' Also, let's not confuse exclusivity and elitism. mensa may arguably be exclusize, but elite? Also, there are 90 pound weaklings on football teams if they are 90 pound weaklings with guts. A football team in Michigan made it into the state championship game with a one-armed quarterback. Anyway, organizations like mensa (elks, kiwanis, masons) are formed (i would say) as a reaction to living in an egalitarian society, where people "not as smart/good as I am" somehow manage to rise in its ranks. Must be luck, hey? --paul