vince@fluke.UUCP (Craig V. Johnson) (11/05/83)
I really object to people posting emotionally inflammatory remarks just for the sake of being antagonistic and to see who they can invoke an equally antagonistic reaction out of. Well the stupid remarks worked to get a response from me, but I will try to resist playing the game. GAY IS WRONG and you would all be well advised to study religious morals. GOD IS REAL and life on earth is a mere glitch in your forever existence. Are you really willing to gamble that God does not exist? Just as a moment of insanity can land a murderer in prison for a lifetime, a person's foolishness during an extremely short lifetime (when compared to forever) can doom him to an eternity of unhappiness. I certainly am not ready to take that gamble! Christianity teaches that Jesus loves, forgives, and accepts all people regardless of the nature or magnitude of their sins. Jesus is ready to forgive all people of all their transgressions- past, present and future. However, many gay people would like to interpret this as meaning that Jesus condones their choice of lifestyle. This is not the case. Jesus never encouraged anyone to continue their sinful practices. What Jesus did encourage was that people open their minds and souls to a relationship with God through him. The gay lifestyle is wrong for most people because it interferes with one's relationship with God. The interference may be a result of guilt feelings, tension over the inability to establish loving relationships with people of other lifestyles, or of a generally non-conformist, rebellious type attitude. Note that much of this interference is also present in people with racist tendencies. This is not to say it is not possible to live a gay lifestyle and have a reasonably good relationship with God. I am sure there are a handful of people who manage it, and to them, my hat is off. The point is we could all stand to improve our relationships with God, and I am suggesting that living the gay lifestyle is not the best way to start. I would also like to suggest that regardless of one's upbringing, chromosomes, and inborn instincts, any behavior can be learned. I feel that those who continue to insist that they cannot change their nature either don't want to, are too lazy, or have been brainwashed by others into believing they can't. I'd like to hear other peoples opinions on that. Sincerely, Craig V. Johnson John Fluke Mfg. Everett, Wa ...decvax!micrsoft!fluke
joelg@fluke.UUCP (Joel Gilman) (11/05/83)
Well, Bible-pus to you too, fella!
riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (11/08/83)
Although I can't agree with anything else in the recent item by Craig Johnson (vince@fluke.UUCP), I do admit that some of the recent postings in this newsgroup could be perceived as inflammatory to Christians. Please, people, if we want to keep the gay-baiters from producing turmoil in net.motss, we have to refrain from baiting back. Remember, this group was created with the intention of avoiding pro/con arguments. How can we expect the cons to exercise restraint if the pros insist on flaming, too? The best way to deal with Bible-thumpers is to ask them politely, by mail, to go back to net.religion, but otherwise to ignore them. ---- Prentiss Riddle {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle riddle@ut-sally.UUCP
jsol@bbncca.ARPA (Jon Solomon ) (11/09/83)
I don't think anyone on net.motss ever said that Jesus didn't like homosexuals. I do remember hearing people say that "Christians" don't like homosexuals. Certainly "Bible Thumpers" don't like gays... --JSol
decot@cwruecmp.UUCP (Dave Decot) (11/09/83)
This is a reply to a request for opinions by Craig Johnson [decvax!micrsoft!fluke]. Considering myself to be a mostly serious person, I could not resist the temptation to respond. Craig's paragraphs are indented, mine are not. Apologies to those who find this format tedious, but it is the only way I can see to properly address issues without losing context. I really object to people posting emotionally inflammatory remarks just for the sake of being antagonistic and to see who they can invoke an equally antagonistic reaction out of. Well the stupid remarks worked to get a response from me, but I will try to resist playing the game. I don't mind them, and I don't respond to them. I'm glad you're not getting antagonistic, because this is supposed to be a "serious" discussion. Good. GAY IS WRONG and you would all be well advised to study religious morals. GOD IS REAL and life on earth is a mere glitch in your forever existence. Are you really willing to gamble that God does not exist? Just as a moment of insanity can land a murderer in prison for a lifetime, a person's foolishness during an extremely short lifetime (when compared to forever) can doom him to an eternity of unhappiness. I certainly am not ready to take that gamble! Are you really willing to gamble that God exists? Wasting your whole life "serving" a non-existent entity and just waiting around for that life to end so that you can get to the "good part"--that sounds like the most foolish of foolishnesses to me. Studying religious morals has never got ME any nearer to "God" in the past, but it has taught me some useful ideas that I can apply to my life here that makes it more pleasant for me and those I share the planet with. I know that it is hopeless to ask you to defend the validity of your two SCREAMING STATEMENTS. They look to me like two of the maxims in "1984". Christianity teaches that Jesus loves, forgives, and accepts all people regardless of the nature or magnitude of their sins. Jesus is ready to forgive all people of all their transgressions- past, present and future. However, many gay people would like to interpret this as meaning that Jesus condones their choice of lifestyle. This is not the case. Jesus never encouraged anyone to continue their sinful practices. What Jesus did encourage was that people open their minds and souls to a relationship with God through him. I have read and observed what Christianity teaches, and I agree with most of the rules and regulations except those that require suspending reason and gambling everything on something nobody has apparently ever come into contact with. I do not encourage the continuation of stupid practices (that is the ONLY "sin" I believe it is possible to commit). Many gay persons (for that matter, many persons in general) do not like to interpret anything to mean that Jesus condones anything, because Jesus has been several feet under for several centuries. The gay lifestyle is wrong for most people because it interferes with one's relationship with God. The interference may be a result of guilt feelings, tension over the inability to establish loving relationships with people of other lifestyles, or of a generally non-conformist, rebellious type attitude. Note that much of this interference is also present in people with racist tendencies. This is not to say it is not possible to live a gay lifestyle and have a reasonably good relationship with God. I am sure there are a handful of people who manage it, and to them, my hat is off. The point is we could all stand to improve our relationships with God, and I am suggesting that living the gay lifestyle is not the best way to start. The biggest interference with MY relationship to God is that God has apparently not related to me. A one-sided relationship is not healthy, either, is it? Do I interpret your statement to mean that you now say that it is not always the case that "GAY IS WRONG?" Many gay persons whose lives have not been ruined by the senseless intolerance of our society no longer feel guilty, because they have discovered that there is no reason to feel guilty. Being gay doesn't mean that loving relationships with people of "other lifestyles" (whatever that is) are verboten, either. It has been my experience that on the average gays are MORE tolerant, more open-minded, and less racist than others, probably because they understand what it is to be labelled and mistreated. A person unafraid to show affection toward others regardless of sex is well on the way to learning to love and respect others. Loving your fellow woman or man is never a bad way to start following the Bible's description of a good life: that practice is written there as The Law. Skepticism and non-confomity lead to diversity and investigation, and that is the source of creativity. I would also like to suggest that regardless of one's upbringing, chromosomes, and inborn instincts, any behavior can be learned. I feel that those who continue to insist that they cannot change their nature either don't want to, are too lazy, or have been brainwashed by others into believing they can't. I'd like to hear other peoples opinions on that. I also believe that any behavior can be learned, but many gays seem to like their life and don't see any reason to go out of their way to mess it up. Although it is probably possible to brainwash a homosexual person into believing that s/he is ruined for eternity unless s/he gives up the love which is a fulfilling part of his/her life; it is also possible, though not likely, that you could change your nature, too, and think in your brain instead of in your book. Dave Decot decvax!cwruecmp!decot
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (11/10/83)
Whether gay is right or wrong from a religious point of view is totally irrelevant for the purposes of this newsgroup. The newsgroup's charter, such as it is, makes it clear that articles criticizing homosexuality do not belong here. So, proselytizers, pleas SHUT UP and let the people who want to use this group get on with it. Debates on the morality of homosexuality should continue in net.religion. Dave Sherman (P.S. For the record, I also have religious objections to the practise of homosexuality. But I'm sure not going to voice them here.) -- {allegra,cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo}!utcsrgv!dave
debenedi@yale-com.UUCP (Robert DeBenedictis) (11/10/83)
I would like to second Steve's (sdyer) request to have this group stop arguing about religion. There are many more important things to discuss. LIKE: 1. Gays and The Media: how are the represented (or not represented) AND what *you* can do about it. 2. Coming Out, the Pros and Cons: is it politically correct (or even polite) to try to convince closeted people to come out. How entitled are they to remain in the Closet? 3. Politicaly Correct: What does 'PC' mean? Is it like etiquette? What are the advantages of being PC? Am I 'self-depracating' if I am not PC? 4. You Name It: This newsgroup has untold potential. It occupies an uncommon spot on the net. Let's use this group to do something are parents would be proud of. :-) "Now, You're Never Alone" Another Message In The Bottle from Robert "No Need To Reply" DeBenedictis OBSERVATION: Deciding whether or not god exists is like trying to decide between Door Number 2, The Envelope or The Cash (all while dressed like a chicken). [Monty Hall is god.]
speaker@umcp-cs.UUCP (11/14/83)
Just as a moment of insanity can land a murderer in prison for a lifetime, a person's foolishness during an extremely short lifetime (when compared to forever) can doom him to an eternity of unhappiness. I certainly am not ready to take that gamble! Christianity teaches that Jesus loves, forgives, and accepts all people regardless of the nature or magnitude of their sins... Don't these two statements seem contradictory? If Jesus IS that loving and forgiving then why would he allow someone to be condemned for eternity for a few very transitory transgretions? I wouldn't condemn MY friends like this. How much more forgiving he must be then. -- - Speaker-To-Stuffed-Animals speaker@umcp-cs speaker.umcp-cs@CSnet-Relay