mwolf@yale-com.UUCP (Anne G. Wolf) (11/09/83)
Some time ago, people started worrying about whether teachers were gay.
It was thought that gay teachers might be "bad models" for children.
This brought up a few other questions in my mind, and I would like to
know what netters think of them.
Please reply by posting things to the net.
(Summarizing responses would be impossible without biasing the result.)
Please sign your reply with at least a distinctive pseudonym,
if not your real name (even if you are using a "guest" account).
Please try to make your follow-ups polite.
------ --- -- ---- ---- ---------- -------
My opinions are probably evident from my phrasing of these questions.
I cannot think of a way to phrase the questions neutrally, but those
with differing viewpoints are welcome to post follow-ups.
I apologize in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors.
1) If a person is applying for a job, is it generally the employer's
business to know the sexual preference of the perspective employee?
If not, are there any professions, such as teacher or CIA agent,
for which it would be reasonable to ask for this information?
If so, should gays be considered a minority for the purposes of
Affirmative Action?
2) Should the behavior of teachers in the classroom be such that it is
possible for students to determine the sexual preference of their
teacher?
3) Does one's sexual preference have any relationship with the preferences
of people with whom one came in contact as a child? Do sexual
practices or the likelihood of "coming out of the closet" have any
relationship with the preferences of people with whom one came in
contact as a child?
4) Organizations such as the Man-Boy Love Association seem to hold the
view that sex between children and adults is acceptable.
Although the existing statutory rape laws make this practice illegal,
do people think that there are circumstances under which this would
be alright? (Let us assume that the child is under 15 and that the
adult is over 21 years of age.) Do the respective genders of the
adult and child make a difference in this judgement? Are there
circumstances under which sex between a teacher and a pupil would be
alright?
Please DO NOT reply by mail.
Mary-Anne Wolf (decvax!yale-comix!mwolf).sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) (11/10/83)
I've included Anne's questions when my answer didn't make the question
obvious. When my comments refer to teachers, I'm thinking of K through
12th grade.
1.) An employer has no business asking about the sexual preferences
of an employee, except perhaps in the case of security clearances,
where the Govt. makes it its business to know EVERYTHING about an
employee. I hardly think that gays should be considered a minority
for the purposes of Affirmative Action, but I feel that protection
against discrimination in areas of housing and employment should be
extended to gay people.
2) Should the behavior of teachers in the classroom be such that it is
possible for students to determine the sexual preference of their
teacher?
I don't know what to make of this question. Usually, teachers
come across as sexually neutral in the classroom (does this make
them 'neutrons'?) I'd look crosseyed at anyone who made a big deal
about sexual preference, regardless of orientation, since this isn't
usually what the class is about. Now, there are always male teachers
who are somewhat effeminate and female teachers who are "mannish"--
at times their students label them as "queer", regardless of the facts.
This says nothing about their sexual orientation.
3) Does one's sexual preference have any relationship with the preferences
of people with whom one came in contact as a child? Do sexual
practices or the likelihood of "coming out of the closet" have any
relationship with the preferences of people with whom one came in
contact as a child?
I don't know. I know I don't like the question. I know
many gay people who never knew another gay person until they
were well out of school. Some people know they're gay at a VERY
early age, others don't 'come out' until much later, often after
having had many heterosexual affairs. I find the "infectious"
theory of homosexuality completely repugnant, mainly because it is
usually proposed by people who have an axe to grind against gays.
It also does not jibe with my own experience, but that's too small
a sample to mean much scientifically.
The seduction of a child might have profound effects on his
psychic/social/sexual development, though I won't begin to
second-guess what that might be. But we're not talking about
seduction (ARE WE?) We're talking about fine, upstanding,
effective teachers who just happen to be gay. Listen--you'd
be surprised at the number of teachers who are gay, and you'd
be surprised at how ordinary they are, except that they're
scared SHITLESS of losing their jobs. The waste of spirit
is such a shame here.
4) WHAT THE HELL DOES THE NORTH-AMERICAN MAN-BOY LOVE ASSOCIATION
HAVE TO DO WITH TEACHERS??? I am not in favor of teacher-student
sex, regardless of the sex, age, or sexual preference of either (any?)
of the participants. Sorry, Anne, I'm **trying** to keep calm here,
really, I mean I appreciate your openness and willingness to ask
questions. But this question reflects a real misunderstanding of
gay people and gay teachers. Why would they be any more likely to
have sex with minors? Such an assertion is patently false.
The quesion of NAMBLA is an interesting 'hot potato' for both
straights and gays, but it deserves separate attention, and I
REFUSE to muddy up the discussion of gay teachers with an irrelevant
issue.
/Steve Dyer
decvax!bbncca!sdyeralle@ihuxb.UUCP (Allen England) (11/11/83)
1) Other than for security checks, I don't think anyone need know anothers sexual preference (and security checks, only because they want to know everything). 2) Teachers should not be displaying sexual behavior in the class room ever. 3) I do not believe there is conclusive evidence regarding how sexual preferences are determined. Certainly there is no evidence supporting that exposure to homosexuals will lead to homosexuality (or heterosexuality for that matter). 4) Sex between adults and children is *NOT* proper, EVER!!!! Allen England at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxb!alle
jrc@ritcv.UUCP (James R Carbin) (11/12/83)
) If a person is applying for a job, is it generally the employer's busi-
ness to know the sexual preference of the perspective[sic] employee? If not,
are there any professions, such as teacher or CIA agent, for which it
would be reasonable to ask for this information? If so, should gays be
considered a minority for the purpose of Affirmative Action?
The U.S. military has for years asked the question, "Are you a homo-
sexual or have you ever had homosexual relations?" As a veteran,
while I was not involved in such activities, I think the amount of
homosexual activity in our military is far greater than most would
want to acknowledge. If discovered, a general discharge is imminent for
those involved. The rationale is that homosexuality would undermine
morale. I know of some veterans who are gay who did not have their first
homosexual experiences until they had completed their military service
and received their honorable discharge. CIA agents, etc. are supposedly
more prone to blackmail. If a homosexual is "out of the closet," then how
can they be blackmailed? In many states, it is not possible to become
a member of the bar if you are homosexual. HA HA - I know one gay lawyer,
and for that matter, a gay doctor. Now teachers. As many educated gays
are responsible individuals who sincerely want to give something very spe-
cial namely themselves, to further the betterment of society by teaching in
the public schools, the question of sexual preference is not germane.
Would you ask a married male or female teacher in what kind of sexual
activities they indulge? NO! Then why ask a single person? (Besides
some married people cheat on their spouse with a homosexual partner.)
Should gays be included in Affirmative Action? NO! But neither should
they experience any sort of discrimination just because they are gay.
2) Should the behavior of teachers in the classroom be such that it is possi-
ble for students to determine the sexual preference of their teacher?
If by this question, you mean, "Should the teacher ever bring up the
issue of their sexual preference," the answer is obviously NO! whether
it be in or outside of the classroom. But suppose for example the teach-
er is unmarried and over 30, then many in our society begin to "suspect"
that the individual may be homosexual. This is particularly true if the
individual does not date MOTOS. By circumstantial evidence, many students
(at least in high school) will ask the question whether their teacher may
well be homosexual. Would you ask that homosexual teachers periodically
date MOTOS for sake of appearance? If this is true, each state legislature
will have to determine how often and how such activity can be verified.
It would not be unusual for a married teacher to mention their spouse
or family, or students might see the teacher's spouse or family at a
school function. It would be highly unlikely that a homosexual teacher
(even if they were out of the closet) would talk with their students
about any of their gay friends nor would they have any of their gay
associates involved in any school activity. By the absence of apparent
MOTOS activity, students could begin to wonder about the sexual
orientation of a teacher even though this teacher never overtly said
or did anything that could be considered inappropriate.
3) Does one's sexual preference have any relationship with the preferences
of people with whom one came in contact as a child? Do sexual
practices or the likelihood of "coming out of the closet" have any
relationship with the preferences of people with whom one came in
contact as a child?
While environment has to be a factor in the development of any aspect
of an individual, I know of several homosexuals who feel (from rather
to very strongly) that they have had homosexual feelings from the
time of their earliest sexual awakening. It is my own opinion that it
would be the rare case in which an individual would be converted to be
a homosexual because they were exposed to homosexual teachers. For
someone to become homosexual, in my opinion, it takes much more than
just contact with homosexuals. I even wonder if there really exists
a significant population of homosexuals who "choose" that lifestyle.
As it is often a difficult life I doubt that many consciously choose it.
Whether someone is out of the closet or not I really don't think
is influenced to any great extent by whom they have had contact with
whether it be in their childhood or later in their life. Why would
it? If in your childhood your house was next door to a lawyer, would
you have had a greater likelihood to have to become an attorney?
4) Organizations such as the Man-Boy Love Association seem to hold the
view that sex between children and adults is acceptable. Although
the existing statutory rape laws make this practice illegal, do people
think that there are circumstances under which this would be alright [sic]?
(Let us assume that child is under 15 and that the adult is over 21
years of age.) Do the respective genders of the adult and child make
a difference in this judgement? Are there circumstances under which sex
between a teacher and a pupil would be alright [sic]?
Whether we are talking about a MOTOS or a MOTSS situation, UNDER NO
CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD A TEACHER HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH A PUPIL. I
am perplexed with this question. Is it included as a legitimate ques-
tion or for its shock value? How many teachers are not over 21 years
of age? Very few! I deplore the Man-Boy Association, an organization
which has done inexcusable harm to the gay-movement, and an organization
whose members represent the views of a very small percentage of homo-
sexuals. I question the inclusion of such a question in a survey about
gay teachers. Sexual activities of any kind whether MOTSS or MOTOS can
not be condoned between a teacher and their students. Unfortunately
it is this kind of question with potentially emotionally charged rhetoric
which may blind us to the overall question. By its inclusion, it tends to
paint all homosexuals as perverts & child molesters. The members of that
assoc. represent only a very small fraction of the homosexual community.
I think that the vast majority of gays would share the same feeling
of repugnance towards that assoc. as any cross-section of our society.
as ever,
j.r. {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!jrcka@hou3c.UUCP (Kenneth Almquist) (11/15/83)
1) Of course it's not reasonable for employers to concern themselves with the sexual preferences of their employees. I can't think of any cases where this would be related to job performance. I have some reservations about affirmative action, but I suppose homosexuals are as good candidates for affirmative action as any other group that is discriminated against. 2) Probably not; I can't conceive of very many instances when teacher would be called upon to discuss their sexual preferences with their students. 3) The evidence seems to suggest that sexual preferences are, if not innate, then determined at a very early age. All the evidence seems to be against the notion that sexual preferences can be encouraged by association with other individuals with particular preferences. The question about "coming out of the closet" is more interesting. I would suggest that the ability of an individual to deal with his sexual desires, whether homosexual or hetrosexual, depends to a large extent upon the individual's sence of self worth, but that the existance of positive role models would certainly make it easier for an individual to "come out of the closet". This is beginning to sound like a Psych. term paper. I guess the point I am trying to make is that it is impor- tant for people to learn to be able to make their own decisions in the face of social pressures, and that one way to learn this is to observe other people (e. g. self professed homosexuals) dealing with social pressure. Additionally, I belive that people should encounter a varity of viewpoints on life. 4) I am not familiar with the "Man-Boy Love Association", but there are people who advocate the abolition of incest laws covering father- daughter relationships, so I am not surprised that such a group exists. Sexual relationships between parents and children, or teachers and students, are by their very nature are not relationships based on mutual consent. The power a parent or teacher has over a child makes the concept of consent essentially meaningless. For that reason, such relationships can be very damaging. Kenneth Almquist