wdoherty@bbncca.ARPA (Will Doherty) (01/15/84)
Steve, I too am disturbed by the "blatant harassment and discrimination that some women's bars impose upon men..." However, I must admit that this discrimination disturbs me far less than the discrimination demonstrated by a gay bar which discriminates against people of color. I guess I feel that it is necessary to look at the societal context of the discriminatory situation. Obviously, blacks and lesbians have both been victims of considerable harassment and discrimination. If Somewhere (a lesbian bar in downtown Boston) refuses to let you in because you are a white man, that strikes me as a very different sort of discrimination than the white gay men at the Union Club (a gay bar in NYC) who refuse admission to black gay men. Somewhere, I have heard, has allowed some men to enter the bar in the past who have taunted the women patrons there, and occasionally caused property damage as well as physical assaults against the patrons. The blacks who were banned from the Union Club did no such thing. Ideally, everyone would get along with everyone else and we would not need to label some places as places where only certain people are welcome. But until widespread societal harassment against women, people of color, lesbians and gays, among others, discontinues, I believe that these groups should be able to discourage disruption by outside forces. This may mean offending an occasional man who does not understand why he should be refused admission to a lesbian bar. It hurts especially because you (and I) know that you (and I) are not going to harm these bars or anyone in them (at least intentionally). But this is not the point. Oppressed groups should have the right to gather by themselves, even if they gather in what is technically a public place. If they did not attempt to maintain some degree of segregation, it is likely that they would not be able to continue to exist. Need I remind you of countless queerbeatings here in Boston, of arson against the centers of the lesbian and gay community, of anonymous death threats in Northhampton, MA, and of societally-condoned murder (of Harvey Milk and Mayor Moscone) in San Francisco? Perhaps I should not appear quite so well-defined in my views on this though, because I am not. I want the world to be a place where lesbians won't want to segregate from gay men or from men in general. But this is not the world that we live in. I can only say that I sympathize with lesbian segregation from men far more than white segregation from black or straight segregation from gay. Let's look at who has suffered and why such discriminations develop. Lesbian segregation developed primarily as a reaction to male oppression directed against women and lesbians. Even here on the net, men cannot control their urges to penetrate a list meant for women only. When men cannot even respect the request of a group of women to have a forum among themselves here on the net, it makes it so hard to believe that men will respect women in society at large. Here on the net, it's just some electronic trash that readers can flush if they desire. But the consequences of the oppression of women throughout our society are far-reaching, to the point of being difficult to grasp. Will Doherty decvax!bbncca!wdoherty
sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) (01/15/84)
Regarding women's bars and harassment, Will says: I guess I feel that it is necessary to look at the societal context of the discriminatory situation. Obviously, blacks and lesbians have both been victims of considerable harassment and discrimination. If Somewhere (a lesbian bar in downtown Boston) refuses to let you in because you are a white man, that strikes me as a very different sort of discrimination than the white gay men at the Union Club (a gay bar in NYC) who refuse admission to black gay men. Harassment and discrimination should not beget further harassment and discrimination, though with human nature, it usually does. We do not have to condone such behavior, though an individual might "understand" it. Somewhere, I have heard, has allowed some men to enter the bar in the past who have taunted the women patrons there, and occasionally caused property damage as well as physical assaults against the patrons. This does not explain the situation that a woman described in an earlier news item, where in order to gain admission to the Marquee, a lesbian bar in Cambridge, she had to convince the bouncer that she was indeed a lesbian. This woman is small and slight, and would be unlikely to damage much property nor assault many patrons. Also, most every bar, be it straight or gay, can deny admission to people it deems potentially roudy or troublesome. This does not become discrimination until the criteria for exclusion are categorically applied to a particular subgroup. I propose that we admit that any establishment which harasses people on the basis of their sex or sexual preference is guilty of just that--discrimination. It hurts especially because you (and I) know that you (and I) are not going to harm these bars or anyone in them (at least intentionally). But this is not the point. Oppressed groups should have the right to gather by themselves, even if they gather in what is technically a public place. I suppose here we have to distinguish between legal "rights" and a kind of new-age noblesse oblige. That is, as enlightened men (and straight women) who know how to take a hint, we might stay away from lesbian bars. God help us if a group of gay men and women together might want to sit down and have a drink. Luckily, straight or gay men's bars probably aren't quite as picky--a group of mixed sex and sexual preference is less likely to meet harassment there. Ironically, if statutes regarding discrimination against sexual preference are enacted with any teeth in them, a good case could be made against such practices. Even now, the bars are probably guilty of sex discrimination. As a public policy issue, "oppressed groups" (and all groups) have the right to gather. They do NOT have "the right to gather by themselves" in a public place, to the exclusion of the rest of society. If they did not attempt to maintain some degree of segregation, it is likely that they would not be able to continue to exist. I don't think this argument reflects reality. People don't continue to go to places which don't support the kind of environment they desire. An establishment forms the initial "concept"--the clientele carries it out. Thus, gay men's bars stay pretty, um, homogeneous. Clubs which cater to the Black community usually stay predominantly black. Lesbian and Gay Engineers and Scientists meetings don't ordinarily attract lawyers. Lesbian bars aren't exempt from this. Is lesbian culture so fragile that an occasional gay man or straight person will ultimately obliterate it? Is discrimination necessary as a matter of course? I think not. It IS appropriate for a bar which identifies itself as a lesbian bar to ensure that everyone know that by some informal exchange with the doorperson at the entrance. It is also appropriate for the doorperson to use her judgement in denying entrance to potential troublemakers. But this judgement should not be based solely on sex or sexual preference. -- /Steve Dyer decvax!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca