features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) (05/03/84)
For those who do not subscribe to net.jokes.d, here's something that may provoke some thoughts: (copied without notification to the original poster) *This goes for REAL WOMEN, too!* M. Zeszutko From ihnp4!fortune!crane Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/30/84; site ihuxf.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site fortune.UUCP Path: ihuxf!ihnp4!fortune!crane From: crane@fortune.UUCP (John Crane) Newsgroups: net.jokes.d Subject: Re: "Gay Blade" joke Message-ID: <3207@fortune.UUCP> Date: Wed, 2-May-84 12:17:10 CDT Article-I.D.: fortune.3207 Posted: Wed May 2 12:17:10 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 2-May-84 14:12:48 CDT Organization: Fortune Systems, Redwood City, CA Lines: 42 Somebody posted a joke to the effect that if "REAL MEN" don't shave, then why doesn't Giilette change their razor from "Good News" to the "Gay Blade"? Or something to that effect. I responded to the effect that I thought the real joke was the author of the above comment. I thought we were going to stop posting jokes which put down minorities? Again, the reason why such jokes are offensive is that they tend to enforce stereotypes and encourage the habit we humans ALL sometimes have of taking something we can't confront, handle, understand, or deal with and putting a label on it. Then we can look at the label, and not the person. I found two labels in the above joke -- "real men" and "gay". I found both of them extremely offensive. NOBODY, but NOBODY has the right to define what a real man is for somebody else. And anybody who lets somebody else define for him/her what a real man is is probably the closest thing to not being a real man. As for gay people not being real men. I'm going to change that to as for gay people not fitting SOME PEOPLE's IMAGE OF A REAL MAN. Look around you, man, just look around you. I would submit the following attributes of a REAL man (or women): REAL men are concerned with the individual, not with whatever label an insensitive society puts on the person REAL men have their own self-definition and don't depend on society to define them by putting labels on them REAL men don't make jokes at the expense of other people REAL men observe things around them for themselves and don't depend on other people's interpretation of what they see or should see REAL men don't take themselves too seriously REAL men aren't really that concerned about being REAL men
trb@masscomp.UUCP (05/04/84)
Just imagine this situation:
Fred Flamethrower spews forth some crap in some netnews group:
"Men whose last names begin
with the letter T are all fairies."
Sure as the sun rises in the morning, some other person, either an
irate Mr. T or a Mr/s. !T liberal, will speak up in defense of
T he-manliness.
Problem here is that any self respecting thinking person will realize
that the problem is not with T-men, it's with Fred Flamethrower, and
the solution isn't inane and heartfelt blue-faced defense in
net.jokes.d, the solution is to ignore Fred. We all can recognise a
slob, thank you, we don't need your eagle eyes for that.
I'm tired of hearing wimpy mush about real men and real real men
and feminism and humanism. Get the [] picture?
If someone calls someone else an asshole in this medium,
who does it hurt? Caller or callee?
Maybe this shouldn't go in net.motss, but I figure that this is a good
enough forum for discussing the way people view others (and I'm
following up a net.motss note).
Go ahead. Call me an asshole.
Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274dyer@wivax.UUCP (Stephen Dyer) (05/05/84)
>Just imagine this situation: > > Fred Flamethrower spews forth some crap in some netnews group: > > "Men whose last names begin > with the letter T are all fairies." > >Sure as the sun rises in the morning, some other person, either an >irate Mr. T or a Mr/s. !T liberal, will speak up in defense of >T he-manliness. > >Problem here is that any self respecting thinking person will realize >that the problem is not with T-men, it's with Fred Flamethrower, and >the solution isn't inane and heartfelt blue-faced defense in >net.jokes.d, the solution is to ignore Fred. The problem with Andy's reductio-ad-absurdum argument is that it doesn't represent the situation that fortune!crane was attacking. One has no problem knowing what to do with Fred Flamethrower. What IS a problem is the much subtler offensiveness of a joke like "Gay Blade." Here's the joke again: >If REAL men don't shave (except with chainsaws, rototillers, etc), >then perhaps Gillette should market.... > > the gay blade Now, I submit that most people are not going to react to this joke in quite the same way that Mr. Crane did. Probably many smiled just a bit. Some may have thought it was just dumb, but most "self-respecting" people did not take any offense. If one looks at the implications of the joke, Crane's response is more than a "blue-faced defense." He was attacking the kind of thinking which implies that "gay men != real men." This is such an old stereotype that many people don't even think about it--it's just accepted as part of the punchline. Same goes for the Joan Rivers/Carson/Eddie Murphy comedy routines. It is entirely appropriate for someone to point out the sociological ur-text in such jokes. Trouble is that often people like Crane are judged as "humorless." Well, this has been applied again and again to most anyone who takes offense at jokes which use some group as the butt of humor--that is, UNTIL the values espoused by the joke are no longer held by society. Thus, witness the reaction to BLKTRAN: an entire site was taken off the net temporarily. Try to crack a Polish joke, or a joke which devalues the role of women in society. They don't get too many laughs anymore. Unfortunately, gay people don't yet enjoy the kind of cultural consonance which would enjoin someone from cracking a joke like "Gay Blade", not even in the young-(sub)urban- professional milieu of USENET. So, how SHOULD one react? The civil-rights movement didn't get where it is today by staying quiet, nor did the women in the women's movement acquiesce when offensive images of women were offered to the American public--they spoke out against such icons, and it is that speech which helped catalyze the change in societal values. Same goes for jokes which use stereotypes to delimit the roles that gay people play in society. We can only hope that one day people react to ALL such jokes the way Andy recommends we respond to Fred Flamethrower. But, that day ain't here yet. -- /Steve Dyer decvax!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca
edhall@randvax.UUCP (05/05/84)
+ Andy Tannenbaum seems to feel that we should ignore it when some `slob' perpetuates a stereotype, or insults a particular group. ``Who does it hurt?'' He asks. ``Caller or Callee?'' Sure. Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away. Some of us have been around long enough to realize that for every ``Fred Flamethrower'' who works up the courage to post disparaging material to the net, there are hundreds who silently nod in agreement. So when ``Fred'' spouts off, we're going to take the opportunity to provide some education. And I think Andy knows this. His real reason for complaining is probably best expressed by: > I'm tired of hearing wimpy mush about real men and real real men > and feminism and humanism. Get the [] picture? So, we shouldn't complain when some group gets attacked, but Andy gets to complain when we do. We are obviously being so much worse than ``Fred''. Well, there is always the `n' key... -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall