tj@sun.uucp (Cal Thixton) (06/04/84)
(Cal, I would like to have this posted on net.motss if you could. My site dousn't send notes out of the building, but we can get out with mail. If you can, Thanks.) I have been reading this group for about 2 months now but have never posted to it before. There are two reasons for tis. The first is that this site doesn't send notes off-site. The other reason is that after reading for a while I quite often want to flame. Due to several notes I've read recently, and the request for new voices, I'm going to put my 2 cents worth on the wire. One of the postings which has prompted me to write this is the following from irish: > Nobody seems to mind that I enjoy Rush, Beethoven, and even Journey. > "And I'm addicted to Dallas"! So what?! So why should anyone care > about my sexual preferences? I find this insulting and extremely insensitive. The Sumpreme Court refused this week to review a ruling by a Circuit Court in New Orleans upholding the INS decission to refuse citizenship to a gay resident alien from the UK on the grounds that he lied about having a psychopathic personality. Although he was never asked whether he was homosexual, he should have know that this fact meant that he was indeed a psychopath. The author of an article recently published in Psychology Today, and reprinted in major newspapers throughout the US, states that "statistics and descriptions only confirm the belief held by many heterosexuals that homosexuals are depraved". Public officials in San Francisco are buisily trying to determine what form of behavior mod will best save homosexuals from thenselves. Drawing alalogies between people subjected to such opression and people who like particular musicians and TV programs is to make light of a very serious subject. Gayness is something that most gay people perceive as a basic facet of ourselves for our entire life. It is not a whimsical matter of taste, like prefering red-heads or Sunday afternoons. I don't care what anybody's sexual preferences are (except my lover's), but for my entire life I have been subjected to labelling, descrimination, and negative conditioning because of my sexual orientation. Quite often I have read in this group about *sexual preference* and gay people *choosing* to be gay. I would like to ask the heterosexuals on the net when and how they *chose* to be straight. According to studies and personal experience the main thing that gay people choose is how open to be about our orientation with ourselves and others. Since heterosexuality is the only accepted orientation in this society, heterosexuals have no similar experience. It is rather shallow minded to assume out of the lack of this experience that gay people have chosen to be *different*. The difference between sexual preference and sexual orientation is a large one. Sexual orientation is the terminology currently used by most gay organizations, writings, and legislation. It implies not only the understanding that gayness is an essential part of the experience of most gay people, but it implies the same type of respect exibited by referring to black people as black instead of colored. Another statement which disturbs me is the following from crane: > I don't know why many people who contribute to this newsgroup seem to be so > hung up about whether or not somebody is gay or bi admits it or not or > whether or not they are told that this or this person is or is not gay or > bi or whatever or even whether somebody is homophobic or not. If discussing who we are and how we [don't] fit into this society aren't things worth discussing, I would like to know what things gay people should discuss? Ballet and interior design? When I first learned about this group I was very excited at the prospect of hearing from gay computers users throughout UNIXland. What I often feel after reading it is more akin to having seen another Sunday tour bus gawking its way through the Castro: That I have again been subjected to the patronising liberalism of *slumming* straights. Keith Keilman ucbvax!hpda!keilman
lmf@drutx.UUCP (06/05/84)
<>
Thank you Keith for such a well put response. When I responded on this
issue I used affectional preference which should have been affectional
orientation.
For heterosexuals who consider sexual orientation to be a private matter
think about the following:
WHAT IF 90% of the population were homosexual and 10% was heterosexual
Your spouse dies and you are in mourning. You can't take the
days off that your company provides for these situations because
they didn't know you were married. After all you could have lost
your job if they found out. You also cannot receive the support
and sympathy of your coworkers because they might freak out if
they knew you were married. After all isn't that a sin.
Plus if there's no will then you will not inherit and often will
not be recognized by your spouses parents.
You are walking down the street or in a movie theater and you
want to hold hands with your motos date and you feel that would
not be safe. After all you might be beaten up by some homosexual
person who thinks you are sick, too blatant, etc.
You are continually bombarded with advertising, literature, movies,
TV, and other people who assume homosexuality is the norm and
heterosexuality does not exist. You begin to wonder if you exist
and maybe you're the only one.
(That's all the examples I have time for, I'm sure you can think of others)
Awareness is how situations change not by pretending they don't exist.
I'm always trying to raise my awareness about issues in many areas and the
people who come up with the insights are usually the ones who live with
them everyday. I depend on other gays and lesbians for new insights. Thanks
For those of you who don't want to read about who in history was/is
gay or lesbian, homophobia, gay rights,
and other relavent issues, GO READ ANOTHER NEWSGROUP.
Lori Fullerirish@ihuxb.UUCP (Laura Sheldon-Fehlberg) (06/06/84)
Just as I learned many years ago to use the term "black" in place of "colored", Keith has now taught me to say "sexual orientation" instead of "sexual preference". I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my ignorance. About the Supreme's Court refusal to hear the case about the gay person who was refused citizenship: I was shocked. I am quickly losing faith in the government's promise of "equality for all". If I thought it would do any good at all, I'd personally bash in the faces of those responsible. Keith, you seem to have misunderstood the intention of my article. I did not mean to "make light" of the problems of gays with my analogies between them and someone who likes certain TV shows and musicians. The point I was (and am) trying to make is that sexual orientation (see! I'm learning!) SHOULDN'T make any more difference in how a person is perceived than what music he or she listens to. It's very disturbing to me that it DOES. Aside from the spread of AIDS (Hey, the Haitians are all right... Let's blame the homosexuals for it!) and the dictates of some ancient book (many parts of which I strongly disagree with), what reason is there for such discrimination? Can anyone fill me in there? (Oh, God... Don't get me wrong about what I just said about AIDS. The general public is SCARED of the disease, and "it's all because of those damned queers". It's too bad we can't give everyone a vaccination against ignorance. I thought Archie Bunker was a great comedic character. Now, I'm saddened at how many real-life Archies I know.) I fully understand the lack of choice in whether to be gay or not. I didn't ask to have brown hair and brown eyes, I just turned out that way. I don't believe I made a conscious choice when I realized that Beethoven and The Monkees were my favorite "groups" when I was in high school (note: this was 1976), but I knew their music had something in it that satisfied me. And I stood my ground when the other 10th graders teased me. I realize this "analogy" may be pushing it somewhat. I could have (not too easily) broken all of my records and sworn never to utter the names "Ludwig" or "Mike Nesmith" ever again, but there would have been something inside of me that was pushing to get out. Not understanding oppression? In my high school, there were two groups: the "smart kids" and the "burnouts". I was caught in the middle. The smarts ones didn't want me around because I did drugs. The burnouts didn't want me because I was too smart. I really didn't have any friends until I went to college. Try going through those so-important high school years with nothing but strange looks and being ignored. Anyway, if homosexuality were the norm, I doubt that I would hesitate to proclaim my heterosexuality, whether it would mean oppression or not. I am who I am, no one else. (BTW, Joe was the president of the class ahead of me. He was very well liked during high school. A few years ago, he was arrested for "making out in his car with an underaged male". The reaction from a girl I know who was a member of that class was, "Oh, no! Who's going to plan next year's reunion now that Joe is gay?") This is getting sort of long, and I realize that my writing style is kind of choppy. I don't admit to knowing every facet of what gay rights entail, but what I do know of, I back 100%. I am not trying to make light of any concerns of the homosexual population. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is as stupid as that based on skin color, hair color, or how many trees one has in his back yard. Keith, I'm sorry that I offended you. It was not my intention. I'd like to hear from you sometime via mail. I have no close gay friends. Perhaps you can enlighten me more on what it's like to be gay. As always, The Irish Aardvark (Laura) ihnp4!ihuxb!irish
crane@fortune.UUCP (John Crane) (06/07/84)
Did you know that programmers as a group are discriminated against. We are often categorized as super techie nerds who wear glasses and carry hex calculators around on our belts. They say we can't write coherent English and should never be let out of our cubicles except under leash and muzzle, etc. Pretty ridiculous isn't it? I stretched the truth above to make a point. But there is also some truth. However, I'm not aware of any net group where people do nothing but moan and groan about how unfair society is to them because they are programmers. There are other interest groups on the net as well. The people in those groups like to discuss the joys and pitfalls of C, UNIX, nude underwater unisex backpacking or whatever. Net.religionists get off on flaming each other. (I finally wised up and got out of that mess.) Net.flamers get off on flaming, pure and simple. Again, nobody sits around bitching about how tough life has been to them because of some proclivity in their makeup which causes them to take an avid interest in whatever. Then we come to net.motss. I realize that this is MORE than an INTEREST group. The word "interest" implies something casual, like somebody said taste in classical music, etc. I also agree that its MORE than a choice. Its something a person apparently is born with. We aren't even just talking about sexual preference. Ladies and gentlemen, I submit to you that we are talking about very fundamental attributes of a person's personality -- all of the above plus how the person views the world, the person's perception of what is beautiful or ugly, their perceptions of human relationships. No, I'm not talking about a Sunday afternoon jaunt through the Castro, I'm talking about paying the deposit and moving in, lock, stock, and barrel. I had a roomate who once counseled me about a very tempestuous relationship I was having: "You gotta take the shit along with the sugar". I realize that the gay life is very hard. If anybody thinks a person CHOOSES to be gay, guess again. It is very nice sometimes, but it can be hell. I won't discount the fact that there are bigoted creeps running around condemning everything they don't understand in the name of science, religion, parenthood, and everything in between. It is tough growing up gay. It is tough comming out to yourself, it is tough living with yourself, it is tough dealing with people who don't understand. Socienty CAN be oppressive. I grant all of you all of that. How does one effectively combat that? Certainly not, I hope, by being just as oppressive right back. We have to stick together as a community. We need this news group among other things. However, what unites us? What holds us together? Holding a collective chip on our collective shoulders and waiting for somebody or some group to knock it off? Why not something positive instead? It's easy to tell what a lot of the Gay community is against, but what are they for? What does the Gay community have to offer the straight world besides protests and outrageous and alienating behavior? I don't think we necessarily need to discuss ballet and cooking. But I don't think a steady diet of politics, protests, and boo hooing about unfair other people are is too digestible either. I think it's time to come down off the cross and STOP BEING VICTIMS and start LIVING as human beings. Lets discuss the Gay perception of life. Lets start building or pointing to some role models that many people say are lacking among gay people. Accenting the positive aspects of life is NOT pretending that the negative one don't exist. It's back to looking at the rose or the thorn. Is the glass half empty or half full? I know its trite, but as they say (trite also) if the shoe fits, ... John Crane