mat@hou5d.UUCP (06/23/84)
As an admitted bigot in the area of homosexuality, I am looking for some
education. I have a few questions -- awful, yucky, uncomfortable questions,
I hope. I hope that some folk are good enough to get a discussion going.
1) I find the idea of a man finding me (a man) sexually interesting is
revolting. Not just disgusting, not just bizzare, but actually revolting.
(My skin is creeping right now ...)
Question is, what happens if you are a lesbian and I (a man) find you
attractive. Or if you are a gay man an I am a woman, and I find you
attractive. And I let you know. You know, flirting ( ... and what do
they call it when a man does it ...) What do you feel? What do you do?
What do you say?
2) If you find this revolting, then why would you WANT to live outside of
communities of folk like yourself? Or at least why would you want to
socialize outside them?
3) How do you feel (both intellectually and emotionally) about the idea that
children of hetero parents should/should not be brought into contact with
you in schools, day care centers, etc? Lots of flames here, please ...
After all, if sexual orientation is established in pre-school years, then
don't parents have a right to have a say in influencing their children's
upbringing?
4) How do you feel knowing that if you find someone attractive on the street,
the odds are that that person will be revolted by what you feel? Do you
feel that it is that person's fault, or is it just a bad accident of nature?
5) If, for a moment imagine if, someone had a magic pill that could actually
make you straight (as opposed to destroying you, a la Turing ...) would
you take it? Were there times when you would have?
--
from Mole End Mark Terribile
(scrape .. dig ) hou5d!mat
,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*. (soon hou4b!mat)sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) (06/24/84)
Mark, I am going to answer your questions honestly, in the spirit of education, with as minimal a flame quotient as I can. I must say, however, that some of these questions are based on logic so bizarre that a lot of them strike me the same as the medieval "How old are the children that Jews kill when they drain their blood for matzohs?" But the gentiles became enlightened as time passed (some would dispute this) and we will try the same for the unenlightened straight community. >I find the idea of a man finding me (a man) sexually interesting is >revolting. Not just disgusting, not just bizzare, but actually revolting. >(My skin is creeping right now ...) Don't know what to say here. Should I have anything to say? Like, whatever turns you off, mannnn... :-) Sounds like your problem, not mine. >Question is, what happens if you are a lesbian and I (a man) find you >attractive. Or if you are a gay man an I am a woman, and I find you >attractive. And I let you know. You know, flirting ( ... and what do >they call it when a man does it ...) What do you feel? What do you do? >What do you say? >If you find this revolting, then why would you WANT to live outside of >communities of folk like yourself? Or at least why would you want to >socialize outside them? Why would I ever find this revolting? I have been the lucky recipient of hints and passes from women, and depending on their nature and seriousness, I might react any number of different ways. If it's someone I know casually, say, where I work, and I sense that she's flirting, that is, bringing the conversation beyond friendly collegiality, it's real easy: flirting is a two-way game and if one player doesn't return the volley, the game gets pretty dull pretty fast, and they get the hint that I'm not interested in pursuing anything romantic or sexual with them. Of course, this happens between straight men and women all the time, too, if one side isn't interested in the other. There's no need to interrupt and say, "Hey, I'm gay and I won't respond to your subtle cues." If it was someone I knew better, then she'd probably know I was gay anyway, in which case I'd probably start wondering just what she was up to, and ask her about it. Of course, if it's just playful, non-serious flirting, you don't have to be a cold fish, either. You just don't want to give anyone the wrong signals if you can help it. A few years ago, I moved into an apartment building where it turned out that a woman I had taught in my Intro to CS section lived. She was attractive, bright, and unattached, and we both were glad to find a compatible friend for dinner and conversation who was only a few steps away. Of course, after a few home-cooked dinners a deux, as we were becoming closer friends, it became clear that I should share the fact that I was gay with her, especially because I was no dummy, and I *knew* she was getting romantically interested in me (I kept thinking "You're SUPPOSED to be DOING something now, Steve" as we'd sit talking on the sofa.) So, I told her, we stayed good friends and our relationship grew from there. Funny, we had dinner just a few weeks ago, and we were reminiscing about those days. She said, "You know when you told me that you weren't sure whether this was relevant or not, but you're gay? That was REAL relevant, and I'm glad you told me." So, in fact, what I had sensed had been really there, and it had been good for both of us to get the facts out on the table early. Sure, I had thoughts like "Well, why not? Why unnecessarily limit your experiences to what you label yourself?." But, I realized that I wasn't dealing with an intellectual abstraction here, I was dealing with another person, someone with feelings and needs, and since I knew myself, and what I wanted and needed, it was clear to me that to go ahead and have a relationship with her would be unfair to both of us, and possibly end in frustration and acrimony. To voluntarily get romantically and sexually involved with someone when you know that you will not be giving your whole self, where the element of sexual passion is missing on one side, is an incredible act of egoism, where one is sacrificing the other person's feelings merely for the sake of experimentation. No thanks. >How do you feel (both intellectually and emotionally) about the idea that >children of hetero parents should/should not be brought into contact with >you in schools, day care centers, etc? Lots of flames here, please ... >After all, if sexual orientation is established in pre-school years, then >don't parents have a right to have a say in influencing their children's >upbringing? I won't give you a flame, merely state that homosexuality is not something that can be 'caught' by casual contact with other people, including teachers. The theory that sexual orientation is established early hasn't really been backed up by anything resembling proof, and what engenders that orientation isn't known. Many gay people (including myself) will anecdotally state that they "knew" they were gay from a very early age. Don't know why. But there are just as many who did not confront this for many years: puberty, or beyond. It's a real mystery, still. Let me let you in on a secret: if all the children who were taught by gay teachers turned out gay, then there would be no more "problem" because almost everyone would be gay! But, of course, they're not. I grew up without knowing anyone who was gay, and I was taught in parochial school by nuns. Hmmm... Anyway, use your head a bit. How would you expect that this "germ" of homosexuality would be passed on to your unsuspecting children? Would they admire our limp wrists and vow to emulate that? Or maybe they are attracted by our effeminate, swishy mannerisms, and kids love to imitate their teachers. Or maybe it's true that we "recruit" young kids--you don't even want to know what goes on after class is out...BULLSHIT! There are hundreds of thousands of responsible, capable, excellent teachers in our school systems who just happen to be gay, and the only way you'd ever know that would be if you were a close friend. They walk, talk and behave like you, you admire them and think they do a fine job, which they do. Too bad they're scared shitless realizing that their job rests on the ignorance and prejudice of straights, so they make as much of a life that they can, shrouded in the secrecy that disappeared for most gay people 20 years ago. They like teaching, they are committed to their kids, so they stick it out. >How do you feel knowing that if you find someone attractive on the street, >the odds are that that person will be revolted by what you feel? Do you >feel that it is that person's fault, or is it just a bad accident of nature? Frankly, Mark, I have never felt that anyone would be revolted by what I feel. I would prefer to classify people as potentially interested or uninterested. If I don't know someone, and the context indicates he's straight or unstated, and I find myself attracted to him, then I enjoy it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. Since this is strictly an impersonal appreciation of another's features, I really don't care what the other person would think, much as you can appreciate a beautiful woman on the street even though you might not go up and introduce yourself. If Rob Pike's "face server" ever gets written and made available for USENET, you'd better watch out! :-) >If, for a moment imagine if, someone had a magic pill that could actually >make you straight (as opposed to destroying you, a la Turing ...) would >you take it? Were there times when you would have? Not ever. Being gay isn't always easy because of all the crap that society drags along, but it is part of what I am. I like myself, I have a wonderful relationship with my partner of 5 years, I have many friends both gay and straight, and I have a good, rewarding job. Why would I want to change it? -- /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA
edhall@rand-unix.UUCP (Ed Hall) (06/25/84)
+ Mark, you seem to be making a few assumptions here. You seem to feel that most all straights find the desires and behavior of gays disgusting. I wonder if this is true; it doesn't seem typical of the straight people I know, but perhaps they are exceptions. (OK, so I know a bunch of bleeding-heart liberals. :-) ) I won't deny that many people and many institutions are homophobic, though. I don't see why someone else's desire should bother me one way or the other. In fact, I'm flattered a bit when I learn someone of either sex finds me attractive (although it certainly means more to me when the feeling is a mutual one). Also, there isn't anything inherently disgusting in gay sex--after all, straights can, and do, engage in the exact same sexual acts. The problem is in people's attitudes. And they can be pretty ridiculous. For example, I remember how a friend's father once prohibited that I ever set foot in his house again, because he was convinced I was gay. And I know of other people who have avoided me because they suspected I was gay. Well, I'm not. I'm straight, though I am soft-spoken and some of my mannerisms seem `gay' to homophobes. And I doubt that what I've seen is even one one-thousandth of what many gay people have to put up with. The key word here is `people'. And the issues have nothing to do with desires or behaviors--they involve permitting a (large!) group of people their dignity. Unless, of course, you want to make people's private lives and thoughts your business. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
crane@fortune.UUCP (John Crane) (06/25/84)
Rather than get philosophical, I'm going to get personal. Personally, I love being looked at whether it be a man or a woman. Its fun to smile at somebody and have them smile back. Sometimes its a fun trip to have somebody think of you as a piece of meat. But, like anything else, if that's ALL a person is into, you have problems. It makes me feel good. I like to smile back at the guys when they look. I like it even better when women look because it means one of two things (1) either she's not into men's bodies, but she found mine unusually attractive or (2) she's really into men's bodies and reads Playgirl all the time and still found me attractive. All the time I am thinking: "Lady, eat your heart out!" There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's body and keeping it in shape so people will enjoy looking at it. I will say it again, however, that if a person is only hung (no pun intended) up on his/her body s/he is sick sick sick. It really gets boring after a while. Your body is really just a calling card, it gets you in the door, so to speak. What I personally really get off to if really getting into the other person's space and really knowing and loving them on a spiritual level. That's even better than sex, and you don't get hung up on whether a person is a man or a woman, because that is a body function and I'm talking mind to mind, heart to heart, spirit to spirit. So, you can't stand having a man lust after you, huh? Well, try this. Just walk down the sidewalk and notice how make people CAN'T EVEN STAND BEING CASUALLY LOOKED AT. You'd think they had a gun pointed at their head. So, I think the problem in this case lies with not with the lustor but with the lustee. John Crane
tj@sun.uucp (Cal Thixton) (06/26/84)
I sometimes wonder where some of the people on this net find the time to write these 40-100 line letters on a daily(hourly) basis, however, I would like to respond to this seemingly earnest request for info. > As an admitted bigot in the area of homosexuality, I am looking for some > education. I have a few questions -- awful, yucky, uncomfortable questions, > I hope. I hope that some folk are good enough to get a discussion going. > > 1) I find the idea of a man finding me (a man) sexually interesting is > revolting. Not just disgusting, not just bizzare, but actually revolting. > (My skin is creeping right now ...) > > Question is, what happens if you are a lesbian and I (a man) find you > attractive. Or if you are a gay man an I am a woman, and I find you > attractive. And I let you know. You know, flirting ( ... and what do > they call it when a man does it ...) What do you feel? What do you do? > What do you say? you only have to use the social skills you have already, if you are not interested, you can either ignore the other person or be blunt and say, "thanks, but no thanks". if you are interested, then you should know how to go from there. > 2) If you find this revolting, then why would you WANT to live outside of > communities of folk like yourself? Or at least why would you want to > socialize outside them? I do not find this revolting. I have had all sorts of people flirt with me, male, female, black, white, young, old. I try to think of it as a form of flattery. I like to think that I am attractive, so what if I am attractive to some that I would rather not be. Hopefully, I am attractive to someone who I also consider attractive. But regarding why I would want to socialize outside of my kind, I enjoy all sorts of people. > 3) How do you feel (both intellectually and emotionally) about the idea that > children of hetero parents should/should not be brought into contact with > you in schools, day care centers, etc? Lots of flames here, please ... > After all, if sexual orientation is established in pre-school years, then > don't parents have a right to have a say in influencing their children' > upbringing? When I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, I checked into getting a teaching certificate because I have always enjoyed working with kids. Well, being a programmer pays a hell of a lot better. As far as the theory that children can be taught to be gay, I suppose there might be something to that. But when these children grow up and start to deal with their emotions, what they know will not jive with how they feel. Gay children go through this all of the time. They were taught to be straight when they were young, but they felt different when they grew up. The only reason I can think of for not having gay people deal with kids is that gay people tend to have fewer prejudices since we ourselves are all too often reminded that we are a minority. This does not mean that every gay person would be wonderful with kids and be a great role model, just that there are some gay people who would be. Remember, 1 in 10 people are gay. Next time you are in a room of 10 or more people, think to yourself, there is at least one gay person in here. > 4) How do you feel knowing that if you find someone attractive on the street, > the odds are that that person will be revolted by what you feel? Do you > feel that it is that person's fault, or is it just a bad accident of nature? Being 'revolted' is a rather strong feeling to have for someone you might meet on the street by chance. Children and puppies being mangled are things that I would consider revolting. I guess I agree with Dyer in that that would be their problem. > 5) If, for a moment imagine if, someone had a magic pill that could actually > make you straight (as opposed to destroying you, a la Turing ...) would > you take it? Were there times when you would have? If I had a choice of taking a pill and giving up my insight as a gay person into the interaction of others, I would decline. As a gay person, I have had to become very sensitive to the people around me and consequently, I see a lot of things that most of the others around me don't even notice. This is not something unique to gays, we have to develope the talent to know whethere the cute person that we are talking to is going to continue talking to us or punch us out. As far as preferring to be gay as opposed to being straight, I have been gay all my life, I do not know how it feels like to be straight. If you are asking if I enjoy being a minority and having to be careful, well, no. If you really want to educate yourself, try to meet a gay person. You probably have a friend who is gay, assuming you have more than 10 friends, that you just didn't know about. Dealing with gay people intellectually is a whole lot different from meeting us in the flesh. Cal Thixton {decvax,decwrl}!sun!tj convex!texsun!tj p.s. On a different subject... Question: Does anyone know if Steve Dyer has a life outside of this net? I think there are several people pretending to be Steve because I cannot honestly believe that anyone can contribute as much to the net as he does and still get real work done. Will the real SD please step forward?
dyer@dec-vaxuum.UUCP (06/27/84)
Re: A Straight's Plea For Perspective__________________________________________ > Question is, what happens if you are a lesbian and I (a man) find you attrac- > tive. Or if you are a gay man and I am a woman, and I find you attractive. > And I let you know. You know, flirting (...and what do they call it when a > man does it...) What do you feel? What do you do? What do you say? You plead for a perspective? I know of one that's tried and true and thousands of years old: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The first thing to do when trying to understand how homosexuals think and feel is to realize that they are human beings like yourself. Humans all have the same feelings (but never in the same combination), so it's pretty easy to empathize. So let's look at your question in a more general light: A person whose gender is not your preference finds you attractive and flirts with you. What do you feel? Assume that's what homosexuals feel. Your question seems to imply that homosexuals are aberrations in a world that "should" be heterosexual, and their homosexuality leads to sticky problems like heterosexual members of the opposite sex assuming the wrong things. Turn the question around (it's Golden Rule time!) and you'll see that one could also ask how a heterosexual person is supposed to function in a world full of homosexuals? We all muddle through somehow. Now as for what to do and what to say, think of it this way: A person is attracted to you and you, for some reason (they're not the gender you pre- fer, they wear green lipstick, they voted for Reagan, whatever) are not attrac- ted to them. This happens to just about everyone. What do you do? What do you say? As always, you find some way to tell them you aren't interested. The reason why you aren't interested usually isn't cited; most people make excuses to avoid hurt feelings: indeed, you can say "I'm gay" or "I'm straight" even if it's not true. (Not that I'm condoning lies like this; but I do recognize that that's what usually goes on.) So you see, it really isn't that hard. Just follow the Golden Rule. <_Jym_> Jym Dyer dyer%vaxuum.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ...{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer Statements are my own, and not necessarily those of |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|.
maf@unisoft.UUCP (Mary Ann Finnerty) (06/28/84)
** Dear Mark Terribile - ** You will probably recognize your own comments, but, for ** the sake of clarity, my comments are the ones with the `**' ** at the left margin... As an admitted bigot in the area of homosexuality, I am looking for some education. ** This comment is especially interesting to me since this ** message was received the day before the 1984 ** `Gay Freedom Day Celebration' here in San Francisco ** (and other cities across the nation). This ** day, commemorating a brutal, unprovoked attack by police on a ** Gay bar in New York City, (as well as the determination ** to join together as gay men and lesbians to prevent ** anything like that from happening again) was, most likely, ** unknown to you. Still, to proclaim ** yourself a `bigot in the area of homosexuality' is a ** startling way to begin your questions, and its' timing, ** an eerie coincidence... I have a few questions -- awful, yucky, uncomfortable questions, I hope. I hope that some folk are good enough to get a discussion going. 1) I find the idea of a man finding me (a man) sexually interesting is revolting. Not just disgusting, not just bizzare, but actually revolting. (My skin is creeping right now ...) ** This is a pretty strange comment. (not just disgusting, not just ** bizzare...)! Don't you find yourself attractive? Aren't you a ** sexual being? Why should someone's finding you ** `sexually interesting' make you react so emotionally? ** (Is it really the fear that they don't find you attractive?) ** I realize that being revolted by even the thought of sex with another ** man is necessary to maintain that `machismo' that makes the women ** at Tom Jones' concerts swoon with desire. ** That must explain your desire to maintain such an attitude ** instead of seeking a therapist's help. Question is, what happens if you are a lesbian and I (a man) find you attractive. Or if you are a gay man an I am a woman, and I find you attractive. And I let you know. You know, flirting ( ... and what do they call it when a man does it ...) What do you feel? What do you do? What do you say? ** Being a lesbian living and working in the bay area, the problem is ** perhaps simplified. (Though I still find it hard to believe that ** people in other parts of the country are as closed minded as their ** reputation indicates.) If someone talks to me, I talk with them - ** if I talk to someone, they generally respond. If it becomes clear ** that a man is flirting with me, I, actually, am usually flattered. ** Sometimes, however, someone's idea of flirting is repulsive - ** or they are somehow creepy. ** Then I am not flattered, and let them know it. ** Is that so different from your flirting with a straight woman? ** Some will find you interesting, some will take you up on your ** offer, and some will find you revolting (their skin is probably ** creeping right now...). 3) How do you feel (both intellectually and emotionally) about the idea that children of hetero parents should/should not be brought into contact with you in schools, day care centers, etc? Lots of flames here, please ... After all, if sexual orientation is established in pre-school years, then don't parents have a right to have a say in influencing their children's upbringing? ** The `if sexual orientation is established in pre-school years', is ** a pretty big if. I know I was surrounded by straight people all my ** life and it didn't make me straight. Why should I believe that ** contact with gay people would make someone else gay? Is it the ** fear that gays really do have more fun? (Why do you think they ** call it `gay', anyway?) As for parents having a `right to have ** a say in influencing their children's upbringing' - they have ** the MOST IMPORTANT say. No matter who teaches children in the ** classroom, no matter who takes care of them in a day care center, ** the most important influences on children's lives are their ** parents. Whether the children will grow up to be independent, ** secure individuals or not is the most important thing. ** If only the parents who are so worried about teachers' ** sexual preferences would concentrate on the quality of their ** children's education (at home, as well as in the classroom) ** and treat the personal lives of the teachers as just that - ** PERSONAL. Also, if children can learn to be unafraid of ** differences, they will be much better prepared to deal with ** the world as it exists. Not some fabrication of an all-straight, ** (or all-white, or all-rich...) world that is more some parents' ** fantasy than anything their children necessarily need or want. 4) How do you feel knowing that if you find someone attractive on the street, the odds are that that person will be revolted by what you feel? Do you feel that it is that person's fault, or is it just a bad accident of nature? ** Actually, I don't think that the `odds are' that that person will be ** revolted by my being attracted to them. They may not be attracted to ** me or even sexually interested in women, but I seriously doubt that ** they would be revolted by my being attracted to them. ** If someone were seriously revolted, I can't imagine her being ** very bright - why be revolted? Lesbians don't attack or rape. ** The worst it could do (if Playboy Magazine is any indication) ** is make her boyfriend more interesed. 5) If, for a moment imagine if, someone had a magic pill that could actually make you straight (as opposed to destroying you, a la Turing ...) would you take it? Were there times when you would have? ** Not for a million bucks. I think I may have wanted to find such a ** pill when I was in high school. I was so afraid of being gay that ** I took on the most fru-fru, femmy ways I could imagine. ** Then, after a couple of years of blatant, flaunting, ** heterosexual behavior, I relaxed - and flamed. ** I discovered a passion for feminine strength and softness, ** as well as the ease of physical and emotional communication. ** So many things separate men from women - the politics that surround ** us don't help things, either. I have gay and straight friends - ** men and women. I see alot of similarities in our love relationships, ** and appreciate the differences. ** Mary Ann Finnerty ** ucbvax!unisoft!maf
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (06/29/84)
A point that seems to have been skirted around in a number of articles is Mark's repugnance at someone of the same sex being attracted to him. I'm surprised that no woman here has come forth and mentioned that being considered attractive to some other person that you have no interest in, and/or being pursued by said person, is an everyday fact for some people (esp. women). It's just something that happens the course of human interactions, where one person is attracted to another but the feeling is not mutual. It happens. I've heard some say that men who are disgusted by even the possibility of homosexual attraction/advances/etc. toward them would actually be the unwitting beneficiaries of a sort of turnabout justice, in that they'd get to experience (if such an occurrence should actually happen to them) what women get to experience all the time from other men. Perhaps this has something to do with men "needing" to be the pursuer rather than the pursuee... (?) -- WHAT IS YOUR NAME? Rich Rosen WHAT IS YOUR NET ADDRESS? pyuxn!rlr WHAT IS THE CAPITAL OF ASSYRIA? I don't know that ... ARGHHHHHHHH!