arndt@lymph.DEC (08/29/84)
LOVE MEANS BEING ABLE TO SAY AND HEAR, "I THINK YOU ARE WRONG."
Dear Mr. DeBenedictis:
Re. your postling below I would like to take the opportunity to answer
it point by point. First let me say thank you for the very fine tone
of your reply. I would very much like to emulate you. The people on
this net ARE very sensitive and defensive about anyone who questions
their lifestyle and behavior but I have been offensive in tone in the
past and I am now trying to change that.
Subject: A Naive Plea
Posted: Tue Aug 28 06:17:13 1984
Geez. This Ken Arndt guy annoys me. Would you say that he's goading?
I don't mind him though. (Never you mind.)
* Thank you for not minding. I guess you could say I am goading but
my last few postings have tried to goad only in the sense of eliciting
a reasoned reponse. Why exactly are you annoyed? If it is only because
I question your position then do you really have a right to be annoyed?
Or is it because I am requesting you to think through the consequences
of your beliefs and actions and you find that not to your liking?
But all that stuff about the lower intestinal tract, and bowels, and . . .
Uh, all that stuff.
* I didn't get it from nowhere! Where do you think it came from?
Excuse me, but, what has that really got to do with being gay?
Being gay doesn't mean you have a desire to engage in certain acts.
*Sure! I believe that. But now there's only two of us.
Being gay means you like cuddling with other guys. That you really
enjoy their company. Aren't there straights that engage in the acts
Arndt described? I could swear I've read about stuff like that in
Penthouse's FORUM. (I didn't get it, my mother did. She gave a copy
to me and two college buddies to read on a long ferry ride. She only
got it because she wanted to see the Miss America stuff.) Are they
[the straights described in FORUM who engage in anal sex] just as bad,
in Arndt's view?
* Indeed. Heteros do do it and I (if you read my postings carefully)
said the same things about them. But again, the point is that
heteros have an alternative not available to homosexuals.
(Send a stamped self-addressed envelope and I'll tell you
what it is.)
Being gay is not about sex; it is about love and affection.
Or am I naive?
* No, just silly. Like Steve Dyer when he talks of what happens
behind the bushes in the park between homosexuals as "affection".
Either he has never been there or he is . . . silly too.
A 1982 report by the American Medical Association's council on
scientific affairs stated that "Any person, of whatever sexual
preference, who shows a dominant pattern of frequent sexual
activity with many partners who are and will remain strangers,
presents evidence of shallow, narcissistic, impersonal, often
compulsively driven genital rather than person-oriented sex
and is almost always regarded as pathological."
The movie recently mentioned on the net fills in the detail
about "affection" in the park.
You don't sound like that kind of person, by the way.
Mr. Arndt stirs my emotions. It makes me defensive. I certainly hope
I'm not a health risk. I take precautions. Mr. Arndt, why don't you
advocate that gays take care to insure that they minimize their chance
of getting AIDS? I don't see where you get off knocking the Gay Men's
Health Crisis people. If you're so concerned why don't you man one of
their hotlines? Not your problem, huh. Easier to criticize.
* You a health risk? What about the risk to YOUR health?
But I DID speak out against PROMISCUIOUS homosexual and
heterosexual behavior! I invited the net to speak out as
well. The avoidance and silence is sorry to see. I wasn't
knocking the Health Crisis people per se, but the INCONGRUITY
of their holding forth in a church. My speaking out here IS
an expression of my concern despite the poor manner in which
I have presented my concern (jibes) and the hysterical (I don't
know how else to express it) reaction I received.
Everyone takes health risks. The air quality is low today. Can I have
a sip of your Pepsi? Buckle up. How do those new headphones sound?
Gee, that looks good. 55 saves lives. Look both ways. Should we change
the sheets? Are you gonna finish that? Don't sit so close to the TV.
Boy, did you get tanned. Biological. Physical. Chemical. God Bless You!
* So AIDS, etc. is just another health risk? Tell it to those
who have it. Or to those who need blood transfusions!
They aren't doing anything to warrant the risk they stand
under!!! Your behavior places them at risk.
There are gay guys that choose to engage in activities which are currently
very risky. Like anal sex with strangers. These gay guys don't do things
like that because they are gay. They do it because they are either stupid,
uninformed, or irresponsible. Or maybe lost. These things are unrelated to
being gay. Being gay just has to do with whom you choose as your companion.
* What about the stupid, uninformed, irresponsible non-gay men
who engage in anal sex with strangers? I mean where are they?
Lost?? LOST?? You mean spiritually? Or mentally?
Unrelated to being gay? There are still only two of us!
Who you choose as your companion - like my dog or my gun?
Also, Mr Arndt, attitudes like yours only make things worse. How? Well,
it goes like this. Little Johnny is either going to be straight, or be gay.
* Not according to the testimony of some of the netters!
There is no proven method for determining or setting this course. There is
just nothing that has been shown to be effective in persuading Johnny about
whom he should choose for his companion. BUT, you can have an effect on
how Johnny expresses his desires. Attitudes like yours, Mr. Arndt, make
Johnny feel like a real worthless piece of shit. If I were Johnny, and I
met you, I wouldn't feel so hot about myself. So Johnny tries to go about
* Hey, stop that! I think that you are no doubt a hell of a guy!
I think you are wrong in your judgements and actions on this
issue but I can't evaluate you as a total person nor should I.
That would mean I might be judged by my own standards and I
wouldn't want that. Though some people hate homosexuals I
don't. I don't like their program and what I see as self
delusion as to what they are doing.
expressing his desires in ways that won't cause the people he loves to
suddenly hate him. I'm not saying Mr. Arndt that YOU would disown your son
if you found out that he were gay. It's just that, with the attitudes you
express, he would have good reason to believe that he might lose a little of
your affection for him. You see, the persecution of gays is what causes
gays to do the things that the persecutors see as unfavorable. If Johnny
knew deep down in his heart that you wouldn't have him any other way then
maybe he'd be proud to bring home the boy he met at the ice cream parlor.
To see if you approved of this boy. To see how you felt about this boy
maybe becoming a part of the Arndt's extended family. But no, Johnny
would never bring his ice cream parlor boy home to you Mr. Arndt. In fact,
if you were Johnny's dad, Johnny would never be able to really love another
gay person because he would be filled with too much self-hatred. Making
people hate themselves, and feel bad about themselves isn't good for anyone.
* Hey, get down! This avoids the whole (main) issue of whether
or not there is a difference between being gay or being a
---------(fill in the blank with something that it is wrong
to be) Your statements ASSUME gay is ok and I don't buy
that point. What if your son came home with other kids
books, etc. He's a compulsive taker! Can't help it.
I have to accept that, right? Still only two of us.
Mr. Arndt, you don't make me feel good about myself. You don't make me feel
good about being gay. Why do you enjoy being so mean, huh? I'm sorry, I
just don't ever see the greatest good being serviced by hate. You seem to
have a lot of hate Mr. Arndt. You may not think so, but ask around. Your
heart certainly is not filled with love when you talk about gays. Ah, but
that's not your problem & it's easier to criticize.
* Hate! Shit! You mean I don't agree with what you are
doing. My crime is that I say so and ask you to look
at what you are doing. May you never meet real hate.
To you love means never saying someone else is wrong.
(Except if they don't agree with you.)
If you want to go on making people feel real bad about themselves, then just
keep doing what you've been doing Mr. Arndt. It won't drive ME into the
bushes searching for a little self-affirmation of my worth. I know what
you're up to. But I sympathize with Johnny who feels so ultimately unloved
that he would rather risk death than face constant isolation of the soul.
* Johnny's problem isn't that he's unloved, it's that he
is acting contrary to what those who love him think is
right and he won't accept anything less than that they
change their values to suit his.
Mr. Arndt, it's not that I don't like hearing about AIDS. In fact I do;
after all, I want to know what I can do to avoid getting it. But I don't
like hearing about it from you. I don't think anyone thinks your looking
out for them when you send out your warnings about AIDS. They're not even
warnings, they're taunts.
* But are they facts? Come on, to oppose you is to taunt
you, to question is to hate . . . . How does one ask
about what you are doing???
I'm done now. In the future I'll just 'n' over your articles unless I see
the word 'love' in the subject line. You can use that as a cue to all us
net.motss'ers so we'll know when you've changed your tune.
Goodbye, Mr. Arndt. It's been o.k. chatting with you.
I apologize to you for the public nature of this letter,
but my hope is that other people will benefit by reading it.
That's usually why I post articles.
* Your posting was great!! Thanks. Any time. I think
highly of you while still not agreeing with you. Can
you dig it??
Another Letter For The Arndt File from
Robert DeBenedictis
Keep chargin'
Ken Arndtsaquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (09/10/84)
From arndt@lymph.DEC
* No, just silly. Like Steve Dyer when he talks of what happens
behind the bushes in the park between homosexuals as "affection".
Either he has never been there or he is . . . silly too.
Hmmm, are you trying to tell us, Mr Arndt, that YOU have been behind the
bushes in the park with homosexuals? if not, then according to yourself
you are certainly not more qualified to speak about what happens there than
Steve Dyer is.
Sophie Quigley
...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigleydyer@wivax.UUCP (Stephen Dyer) (09/10/84)
Having returned to real life after a long vacation, I see there's lots to wade through, including one of Arndt's typical misattributions. First time around it was citing my words as Jym Dyer's; now he's just placing words in my mouth. >Being gay is not about sex; it is about love and affection. >Or am I naive? > > * No, just silly. Like Steve Dyer when he talks of what happens > behind the bushes in the park between homosexuals as "affection". > Either he has never been there or he is . . . silly too. Let it be known (grep affection /usr/spool/news/net/motss/*) that Steve Dyer has never publically or privately confused public sex with affection. -- /Steve Dyer decvax!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA