daemon@decwrl.UUCP (The devil himself) (10/15/84)
What's Wrong With It?__________________________________________________________ > Ok. You said: As for murders, theives, and drug addicts, one could clearly > demonstrate that their behavior is wrong." > > Go ahead. Clearly demonstrate it!! > > But remember it's only fair to apply the same criteria to homosexuality, so > be careful! (It hurts someone, it's against the law, it's against accepted > values, etc.) The above was written by Ken Arndt in an article entitled "I call you, Jym Dyer!!" There have been replies by others, keeping my name in lights for a while. (Perhaps less people will confuse me with Steve Dyer now?) This article is my reply to Ken's call. I suspect that Ken hopes to trap me with my use of the word "wrong", probably with a "Was Hitler wrong? Why? See?" type of argument. A word of warning, Ken: I majored in sociology, so I'm well aware of cultural relativity and the many different interpretations of the word "wrong"; and I minored in philosophy, so I'm well aware of the abundance of value systems that have been concocted. With that aside, I'll tackle the issues: What's wrong with murder? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Murder is defined as wrongful or illegal deprivation of life. The con- cept of "wrong" is built right into the word. Therefore, murder is wrong. QED. (Just kidding. Looks like the real question is, what's wrong with killing?) Killing harms humans. What's wrong with theft? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Theft is the wrongful or illegal transfer of property. Property is quite an issue itself, but let's look at it my way: one's posessions are an extension of one's will into the physical world. (Whether it is desirable to have many extensions into the physical world is, of course, debatable. So is the idea that there is anything *but* the physical world. But let's save that for net.philosophy.) Theft is an assault on another's will; something that can be harmful. What's wrong with drug addiction? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've counseled drug addicts. Drug addiction tends to destroy addicts. Addicts often have to resort to theft to sustain their habit. Drug addiction harms people and can lead to theft. Now I'll go a step further, illustrating two things that are also wrong. Note that these two things have been brought up before by Ken Arndt (and far too many others); in this newsgroup, where it doesn't belong. What's wrong with pedophilia and bestiality? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Adults having sex with children is wrong because the child's sexual nature is not developed enough for (let's say) intercourse. Also, - and this is the argument against bestiality - such sexual relations indicate that the adult's attitude towards sex involves domination and objectification. Using human beings for sex, rather than participating with them in sex, is an assault on their identity. And now, on to the main attraction, the question Ken Arndt (among others) dodged when I asked it: >>> What's wrong with homosexuality? <<< I've asked this question repeatedly in SOAPBOX (DEC's in-house version of net.flame); most people just didn't answer it. Some did try; and just to start things off, here are their attempts and my responses: (1) Homosexuals do not reproduce. True, they don't. Neither do some heterosexuals; some can't, some choose not to. Is there anything wrong with choosing not to reproduce, especially on an overpopulated planet? Splitting hairs a bit thinner, it was argued that sexual activity practiced by homosexuals was against the "Laws of Nature" since reproduc- tion isn't possible. Invalid argument, since not all sexual activity leads to reproduction. In fact, non-reproductive sexual activity is necessary for a healthy sex life. (2) "You have to get off your partner's a** to kiss him". This is simply untrue. (3) It's a genetic defect. The problem with this argument is that there's nothing to support it. There is some evidence that homosexuality is an inherited trait, but that doesn't mean that defective genes are involved. The same argument could be used against people with red hair or blue eyes; they're a genetic minority. (4) It's not accepted by society. Here is the actual argument in its entirety: > It is a socially unacceptable practice. Viewed by society as a deviation > of normal behavior. > > Except for the more decadent of the worlds societies, I.E. portions of the > ancient roman empire, homosexuality is viewed as a perversion against normal > mores of society. It was already pointed out that Ancient Greece (not normally considered `decadent') accepted homosexuality. Also, consider the fact that some anthro- pologists studied this issue world wide and found that a majority (61%!) of cultures accept or encourage homosexuality. The second paragraph is inaccu- rate. The first paragraph, however, contains the actual argument: Homo- sexuality is wrong because it's not accepted by society. And why, I ask, is it not accepted by society? Because it's wrong? Looks like a bad case of circular reasoning going on here. Invalid argument. Try again. (5) The Bible says it's wrong. Does it? Boswell, for one, doesn't agree. I've come across a number of criticisms of the way the scriptures have been translated, and anyone with an open mind and an idea of where our trans- lations have come from must admit that there's a good possibility for error. So there you have it, the only arguments that DEC's flaming community could come up with; all of which can be soundly rebutted. As far as I've seen, nobody here in net.motss has come up with an answer to the question, either. And I don't think anyone can. <_Jym_> P.S.: By the way, guys, when trying to think up answers, bear in mind the simple fact that homosexuality and promiscuity are two different things. :::::::::::::::: Jym Dyer ::::' :: `:::: Dracut, Massachusetts ::' :: `:: :: :: :: DYER%VAXUUM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA :: .::::. :: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer ::..:' :: `:..:: ::::. :: .:::: Statements made in this article are my own; they might not :::::::::::::::: reflect the views of |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| Equipment Corporation.