greenber@acf4.UUCP (11/22/84)
sdyer--> > Yes, I thought I heard dem ol' bones of Ayn Rand rattling in Greenberg's > arguments even before he admitted it. > He's got it all wrong, of course, thinking that I'm putting the "rights > of the programmer" ahead of my own, and that I would end up poorer because > of it. But of course you'd end up poorer....financially. Of course, you may not be in business to make money, but I am. And I don't "admit" that I believe in much of Ayn Rands. That implies shame. She might be right....and you might be wrong... > Let me just say that I would prefer monetary bankruptcy than > ethical and spiritual bankruptcy. If I see a potential for injustice done > where I would share complicity in the act, it is my duty to make sure that > I avoid it. No question.....When I see an injustice done, I make sure I avoid it, too. Like the injustice of a client being forced to have someone work for them that they would rather not. I am uncomfortable with the situation. Now, perhaps I'm wrong here (being heterosexual), but I consider gayness to not be a genetic thing, but rather a matter of choice. Just like certain political views are a matter of choice. Would you consider forcing someone to hire/retain someone who had a philosophical/political view that they disagreed with?? I don't think so. But now bring up any sexual preference and suddenly we get to call it discrimination?? > The simple fact is that we both > have principles: it is merely that for Greenberg, here, it is materialism: > the almighty buck, the continued existence of a business. Nope...you got it wrong, kiddo... Materialism should NEVER be confused with capitalism. I do believe in capitalism --- it gives us these nifty computers to play with. And perhaps I just feel that if a person chooses to bring to light their gayness in a business situation, they must live with their actions. I think that the client had a right. I made a choice. You disagree with it. Ok....opinions are what makes horse-races. But don't try to hang me up to dry over someone elses sexual preferences. It they want/must be gay, let them live with it, don't force me to. I really don't care about a persons sexual preferences, but you want me to take such things into consideration??? Is that reverse discrimination I see?? And this discussion, I feel, has more to do about the subject of net.motss than it does about net.philosphy. Ross M. Greenberg @ NYU ----> allegra!cmcl2!acf4!greenber <----
greenber@acf4.UUCP (11/22/84)
Fingerhut@cornell --> ? Subject: "Gay Rights" -- let them go to hell, it's not (yet) my problem ? Ross M. Greenberg says: ? > Simply because he is gay I should protect his ? >rights at my own cost?? Give me a break....... ? quotes Ayn Rand, ? >" I swear by my life, and by my love for it, that I shall not live my ? > life for the sake of any other man, nor ask any other man to live his ? > life for my sake " - John Galt ? ? ? ... this selfish and monstrous ? attitude ... was that of the Gentiles towards the Jews (and other ? minorities) before and during WWII... ?? where he then goes on a long diatribe comparing my attitude of replacing a gay programmer with someone else with the extermination of Jews and others by the Third Reich... ? Do the names of Cambodia, Uganda and ? Ethiopia ring a bell, along with those of Maidanek and Treblinka? Both ? should, if you call yourself a jew and a man. Yep...they do ring a bell. And I will call myself a Jew and a man. Enough to say that the murder and killing of persons of any type for any reason is wrong. Now you are trying to get me to equate the horrors of WWII with choosing not to hire a gay person?? Perhaps I'm too dumb to see the point?? Oh...you mean discrimination...ok, if the political atmosphere in this country turns to incarceration or murder of those whose sexual preference may not be the norm, I'll be there to try to prevent it. That is my duty as a human being, regardless of religion or sex. ? Ayn Rand was good for kids in the paradise of the rich and peaceful. ? This is not the world most of us live in, and it's not of our choice. I dunno...try reading it again....most philosphy is not for real world situations...And the world that is not of your choice is the world that you have created. If you don't like it, then change it. Don't just lecture someone about their responsibilities. What have you done to change this world you so dispise?? Ross M. Greenberg @ NYU ----> allegra!cmcl2!acf4!greenber <----
leiby@masscomp.UUCP (Mike Leibensperger) (11/28/84)
Ross Greenberg says: > ... if the political atmosphere in this country turns to > incarceration or murder of those whose sexual preference > may not be the norm, I'll be there to try to prevent it. > That is my duty as a human being, regardless of religion > or sex. Glad to hear it. But if you consistently deny someone the opportunity to earn enuf bucks to eat, well, life won't be much fun for that person, will it? I admit this is an extreme argument and could well be used both ways---suppose Ross's company was about to go under and he desperately needed the $9K bucks to be able to keep his home and not have to sell the kids---but still, I have a bad feeling about denying someone work on the basis of really irrelevant personal details. Ross, if you are personally unoffended by gay coworkers, how come you didn't stick up for your contract programmer a little more instead of immediately caving in to the wishes of your wrong-headed client? I guess in these Real World conflicts between Ethics and Cash, Cash often wins out---but it would be nice if Ethics at least went down fighting. Mike Leibensperger {decvax,tektronix,ihnp4}!masscomp!leiby
greenber@acf4.UUCP (11/29/84)
<> Just a little update on what has happened since this whole discussion has happened: First, for you jerks out there who tell me that gays SHOULD have no rights: PISS OFF! (I mean really....I got about five pieces of mail from REAL homophobes!) Second: The second programmer I sent into do the work after the first one was forced to leave was also gay. However she was a she. And kept this fact to herself, after I mentioned what happened to the last gay programmer I sent in there. Well...it all starts to make sense (a little)....she has a new girlfriend.... ... the Boss's daughter!!!! Ross M. Greenberg @ NYU ----> allegra!cmcl2!acf4!greenber <----
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (12/04/84)
> No question.....When I see an injustice done, I make sure I avoid it, too. > Like the injustice of a client being forced to have someone work for them > that they would rather not. I am uncomfortable with the situation. Now, > perhaps I'm wrong here (being heterosexual), but I consider gayness to not > be a genetic thing, but rather a matter of choice. Just like certain > political views are a matter of choice. Would you consider forcing > someone to hire/retain someone who had a philosophical/political view that > they disagreed with?? I don't think so. But now bring up any sexual > preference and suddenly we get to call it discrimination?? > > Ross M. Greenberg @ NYU ----> allegra!cmcl2!acf4!greenber <---- I will say here that I, for one, do not believe that a person should be discriminated against for their political/philosophical views any more than for their color, religion, sex, race, or sexual preference. Richard Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower