strick@gatech.UUCP (henry strickland) (01/12/85)
> From: larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) > Newsgroups: net.religion > Subject: homosexuality and the Bible > Message-ID: <194@teklds.UUCP> > > I do not understand the purpose of the article by "whatshisname" on proving > that I Cor. and a couple other passages were not against homosexuality. > > Look if you want to be gay, fine. But don't try to put God's stamp > of approval on it. There are many other verses in the Bible clearly > denouncing homosexuality. > > karen alias larryg You apparently missed the whole series (4 parts + 1 correction) or you might better understand his purpose. 1 Co was not the only book examined: he analyzed all verses popularly thought to refer to homosexuality [actually, he summarized from Boswell's book]. The point of the series is that there is nothing in the Bible that criticizes homosexuality itself except for the Mosaic Law in Leviticus, where the origional tongue uses the same word to prohibit it as is used to prohibit eating pork or wearing clothes not all made of the same fabric: something that is ritualistically unclean for Jews (as opposed to the word used to describe murder, something inherently evil). Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed for inhospitality, Romans 1 criticizes infidelity or casual sex, and Corintheans is usually mistranslated. I don't think this puts God's stamp of approval on it. But I do think there is great doubt that the Bible says anything against gayness for a Christian. If the Bible doesn't tell you it's evil, maybe it was the devil. He likes to cause trouble in the name of the Lord . . . Karen, I'll send you a free copy of the series. Anyone else will have to ask me for the set. They're rather interesting. Look, if you want to hate gays, fine. But don't try to put God's stamp of approval on it. Peace, strick -- -- henry strickland -- the clouds project { akgua allegra hplabs inhp4 } -- school of ics / ga tech !gatech!strick -- atlanta ga 30332
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (01/14/85)
> Look, if you want to hate gays, fine. But don't try to put > God's stamp of approval on it. Yeah, right. If someone disagrees with you, that means they hate you. Sure. Kind of cheap, don't you think? -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois | "And the streets shall be full of boys and girls playing --+-- in the streets thereof..." | Zechariah 8:5 |
larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) (02/02/85)
this article has been posted to net.religion.christian as well, but i wanted to see what people here had to say... larry... Subject: Re: homosexuality and the Bible (orig. net.religion) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian References: <194@teklds.UUCP> <4870@fortune.UUCP> <215@philabs.UUCP> <571@ncoast.UUCP> Subject: Re: homosexuality and the Bible (orig. net.religion) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian References: <194@teklds.UUCP> <4870@fortune.UUCP> <215@philabs.UUCP> <571@ncoast.UUCP> > (King James) > Romans 1:22-32 > Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools > > And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to > corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. > > Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own > hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: > but anyone can dishonor anyone's body by putting lust first and treating the other person as an object (you CAN treat a one-night stand like a person...)... > Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the > creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. > > For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their woman > did change the natural use into that which is against nature: > god seems here to be concerned with people not giving him the attention he wants, not thier sexual practices, which he inflicted AS A PUNISHMENT!!! if you recall, in GENESIS CHILDBEARING was also inflicted AS A PUNISHMENT for having eaten of the tree of knowledge... > And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in > their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, > and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. > > And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave > them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; > > Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, > maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers, > > Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil > things, disobedient to parents, > > Without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, > implacable, unmerciful: > > Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are > worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do > them. > i did NOT see the word HOMOSEXUAL in any of god's complaints...if you choose to parse the bible randomly to fit your twisted little mind, that's fine, just remember that faggots like me read it too, and will point out your errors and your ignorance and your oppressive, petty bigotry (the same kind of bigotry that allows men like Hitler (didn't you just love him, Mary?) to rise to power.... god was complaining about a genuinely nasty group of people...reread the crimes... > If you are gay you are worthy of death. Also remember that the > wages of sin is death. Only through Jesus Christ can you be saved and > cleansed from your sins. > that is NOT in the bible (^^^^^ above ^^^^^)...it's self-righteous assholes like you that put their own words in god's mouth until they became law in the first place... what ever happened to "Judge not lest ye shall be judged." ??????? did it ever occur to you (in your infinitely narrow train of thought that runs on a circular track around a monument built out of bibles and hymns that attests to just how holy thou art) that maybe I too, have "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, my savior." That maybe i, too, sit down and talk to god, and lean on him sometimes, except that i figure 99% of the time he's got bigger things on his mind than me, so why should i bother him with my petty bullshit... "the lord helps those who help themselves" > John 14:15 > (Jesus speaking) > If ye love me, keep my commandments. > What is the greatest commandment, teacher? there are two. the first is to love the lord your god with your whole body, mind, and soul...and the second is like the first: LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. i don't think (with any more exceptions than most people) that i have really broken these two commandments at all. > Romans 12:9 > Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil, cleave to that > which is good. > i do...i took my baptismal vows...i did all the things a "good catholic" was supposed to do...if a friend comes to me and says that they caught (for example) a sexually transmitted disease and they are disturbed by it, i try to comfort them, not give them fire and brimstone... you don't know how many nights of endless sleep that passage has cost me... but i am me...if i was made by god, and whatever god makes is good, then i, too, am good...i choose to be good...i do NOT choose my sexual preference... (so it must come from god, and therefore is good)... > Third John 11 > Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that > doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hat not seen God. > since when is touching someone you love in ways that make them feel good (from sex to a simple hug or a backrub) so evil???? > Leviticus 18:22-30 > Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination. > the way most men of the time treated their women, it would be an abomination. > Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither > shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. > > Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations > are defiled which I cast out before you: > > An the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, > and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. > > Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgements, and shall not > commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any > stranger that so-journeth among you: > > (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were > before you, and the land is defiled;) > > That the land spew not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spewed out the > nations that were before you. > > For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that > commit them shall be cut off from among their people. > > Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these > abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not > yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. but those words could just have easily been inserted in as any you have said...maybe i'm hell-bound, but i kind of doubt it...i try to be the best person i know how to... what would YOU do when you found out a friend had AIDS????? would you hold their hand, hug them when they cried, feed them when they were too weak to eat, hold them when they were delerious with fever and didn't know you were there? NO, DAMN YOU!!!! You would be spouting your GOD-DAMNED, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, POMPOUS BULLSHIT that was handed to you by your "god" about how it was all brought on him by HIMSELF!!!! i don't care WHAT you want to believe!!! you can come and have your meetings and talk about how evil all the queers are and how good all of you tight-assed filthy Christians are because you've accepted god -- but in the process you've forsaken what god wanted you to keep in mind as much as himself -- YOUR FELLOW MAN... so call me a CHRISTOPHOBE!!! you're a HOMOPHOBE!!! and you're damned, right, I AM A CHRISTOPHOBE!!! (I do have friends who are Christian, but they seem to have more open minds than most of the Christians i've talked to)...i'm scared to death that one day my sexual preference will be OUTLAWED!!! i'm already uneasy holding hands with my boyfriend in public, though it seems an unspoken rule between us that we're not going to hide our feelings for each other just because of what society thinks... if you had your way, i might get ARRESTED for that!!!! and why shouldn't i be able to kiss him if i like?? don't you touch or kiss or hold hands with YOUR Significant Other (wife, gf, whatever) in public?? just don't expect a warm welcome on my front porch when you come to tell me i'm doomed to hell, or three of you get together with a bunch of chains and beat up some of my friends coming out of a gay bar or you assault the youngest of us (gay men and lesbians) that are part of your own flesh as well, deny them their right to live and love as they choose and leave them with scars that perhaps will never be erased... if i was to come to your door bearing such glad tidings, i bet that you'd pretend that you weren't home, too.... larry... -- uucp: ..mit-eddie!cybvax0!cci-bdc!larry arpa: henrik@mit-mc.ARPA This mind intentionally left blank.
sdyer@bbnccv.UUCP (Steve Dyer) (02/02/85)
> this article has been posted to net.religion.christian as well, but i > wanted to see what people here had to say... > > larry... Um, just to give my own two-cents, Larry, welcome to the net and {mod,net}.motss, but as you might expect, this discussion is not particularly new or novel to readers of net.motss, is not a central purpose of net.motss, and has been successfully exorcised several times before. Right now it seems to be precariously contained to net.religion.christian, where both sides of the discussion can generate as much heat as they like. Were I involved in such a crossfire, I'd probably post a small note like your paragraph above, inviting interested parties to tune into the newsgroup where the discussion is happening.
mat@hou4b.UUCP (Mark Terribile) (02/07/85)
There's been an awful lot of anti-Christian flaming here. Now before you hit BREAK, hear me out for just a little bit. You'll disagree with this, but give it a chance. (Perhaps this belongs in net.flame. Perhaps the original item does, too.) >> <Lengthy scriptural quote) >that is NOT in the bible (^^^^^ above ^^^^^)...it's self-righteous assholes >like you that put their own words in god's mouth until they became law >in the first place... > >what ever happened to "Judge not lest ye shall be judged." ??????? What ever happened to it? It's still active. True, there are folk who will decide that they should be the instruments of God's wrath. On the other hand, there are those who believe that they have to speak the truth as they see it, just as you believe that you must be true to yourself. Please, save your anger for the former group. The latter are just as sincere as you are, whether you can understand it or not. They believe that they have a duty, both to God and to YOU to speak as they do. >did it ever occur to you (in your infinitely narrow train of thought that runs >on a circular track around a monument built out of bibles and hymns that >attests to just how holy thou art) that maybe I too, have "a personal >relationship with Jesus Christ, my savior." That maybe i, too, sit down and >talk to god, and lean on him sometimes, except that i figure 99% of the time >he's got bigger things on his mind than me, so why should i bother him with >my petty bullshit..."the lord helps those who help themselves" That circular track, for some lucky people, is the belief that they should have nothing on their minds bigger than God. As to ``how holy thou art'' ... where do you draw the line between believing that you are doing the right thing and being self-righteous? It isn't always obvious. >...if a friend comes to me and says that they caught (for example) a sexually >transmitted disease and they are disturbed by it, i try to comfort them, not >give them fire and brimstone... And there are PLENTY of Christians who will do the same thing. That's compassion and common sense and it does not contradict our instructions from God. Remember, Jesus ate with those ``known'' to be sinners. >since when is touching someone you love in ways that make them feel good (from >sex to a simple hug or a backrub) so evil???? >> Leviticus 18:22-30 >> Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination. >the way most men of the time treated their women, it would be an abomination. >>... >> Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these >> abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not >> yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. ... >but those words could just have easily been inserted in as any you have >said...maybe i'm hell-bound, but i kind of doubt it . . . if i was made by >god, and whatever god makes is good, then i, too, am good...i choose to be >good...i do NOT choose my sexual preference...(so it must come from god, and >therefore is good)... For the thoughtful Christian, this is the crux of a moral dilemma: Does this orientation, not of an individual's choosing, give someone the burden of obeying very severe laws that others are not burdened by? Or does it give them the right to contravene statements that appear (to many, anyway) to be clear prohibitions? >what would YOU do when you found out a friend had AIDS????? would you >hold their hand, hug them when they cried, feed them when they were too >weak to eat, hold them when they were delerious with fever and didn't >know you were there? NO, DAMN YOU!!!! You would be spouting your >GOD-DAMNED, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, POMPOUS BULLSHIT that was handed to you >by your "god" about how it was all brought on him by HIMSELF!!!! I sort of hope that my reaction would be compassion, but it would probably be confusion. Sorry, I'm less than perfect. >i don't care WHAT you want to believe!!! you can come and have your meetings >and talk about how evil all the queers are and how good all of you tight- >assed filthy Christians are because you've accepted god -- but in the process >you've forsaken what god wanted you to keep in mind as much as himself -- >YOUR FELLOW MAN... Hmm. I don't know anyone who does that. As I said, there are dilemmas involved, but there's a difference between ``We don't want society to say what you're doing is right.'' and ``We want to burn you at the stake because we want to see you burn in Hell.'' >i'm scared to death that one day my sexual preference will be OUTLAWED!!! For what it's worth, it was (and probably still is). Most people nowadays are content to let things go on behind closed doors. This wasn't always true ... look at Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing. >just don't expect a warm welcome on my front porch when you come to tell >me i'm doomed to hell, or three of you get together with a bunch of chains >and beat up some of my friends coming out of a gay bar or you assault the >youngest of us (gay men and lesbians) that are part of your own flesh as >well, deny them their right to live and love as they choose and leave >them with scars that perhaps will never be erased... I doubt that you are speaking to your audience here. It's unlikely that too many people on this net are doing many of the things that you have described. And the people engaging in assuaults such as those you describe are NOT behaving in a very Christian manner, so perhaps flaming at Christians is not speaking to your audience either. -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) hou4b!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (02/12/85)
In article <1318@hou4b.UUCP> mat@hou4b.UUCP (Mark Terribile) writes: >That circular track, for some lucky people, is the belief that they should >have nothing on their minds bigger than God. As to ``how holy thou art'' ... >where do you draw the line between believing that you are doing the right thing >and being self-righteous? It isn't always obvious. What? You don't eat, put your pants (or nylons) on one leg at a time, or think about how you are going to pay for the above objects just like I do? Bullshit. You don't think about God all the the time then. >>> Leviticus 18:22-30 >>> Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination. >>the way most men of the time treated their women, it would be an abomination. >>>... >>> Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these >>> abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not >>> yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. >For the thoughtful Christian, this is the crux of a moral dilemma: Does >this orientation, not of an individual's choosing, give someone the burden >of obeying very severe laws that others are not burdened by? Or does it give >them the right to contravene statements that appear (to many, anyway) to be >clear prohibitions? Unfortunately, most Christians ignore the rest of that book of the Bible, eating pork and shellfish, milk at the same meal as meat (and on the same dishes, even), and only pick out these half dozen verses to claim as God's Law out of Leviticus. Isn't this a bit hypocritical? >Hmm. I don't know anyone who does that. As I said, there are dilemmas >involved, but there's a difference between ``We don't want society to say >what you're doing is right.'' and ``We want to burn you at the stake because >we want to see you burn in Hell.'' You just want society to say that because what we are doing is 'not right' (according to you), we should be allowed to be fired from our jobs, thrown out of our houses... Not quite burning at the stake, is it? Burning is faster! >For what it's worth, it was (and probably still is). Most people nowadays >are content to let things go on behind closed doors. This wasn't always >true ... look at Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing. Forutunately, even in those states where it is still illegal, the courts are throwing such laws out (Texas was the last). And I agree, Christian intolerance has been going on for far to long. >I doubt that you are speaking to your audience here. It's unlikely that too >many people on this net are doing many of the things that you have described. >And the people engaging in assuaults such as those you describe are NOT >behaving in a very Christian manner, so perhaps flaming at Christians is not >speaking to your audience either. > from Mole End Mark Terribile But I know lots of young people who have been thrown out of their Christian parents home because they were gay, often after being subjected to avertion therapy, electo-shock therapy, or prayer marathons. Sorry, but they call themselves Christians and go to Church 4 times a week and read their Bibles. Jerry Falwell, that 'great Chrittian fellow' in the news for the last few years, tells lies on his pulpit. I can only go by what they tell me, since enough of them act the same way, I assume its a Christian trait. Even you seem to want to 'keep me in my place' ('we don't want society to endorse what you do'). Fuck off Christian! -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower