jsol@bbnccv.UUCP (Jon Solomon) (03/18/85)
I'm curious. Why do gay people like to be so visible. Why is it so important for gays to be able to proudly say in the middle of a crowd that he/she is gay. What if I was in a crowded theater and I yelled "fire". It almost sounds like they want to legalize that. This is a real question, I don't understand why Puerto Rican's want to be so visible either, or blacks (who already are based on their skin color). I guess I can see why Blacks should be visible. My point is, discrimination based on race is currently illegal. If someone actually does it they can get into BIG trouble. This gives the individual black (or hispanic) a great deal of power. I question whether this is reasonable. Certainly I don't condone discrimination, but I feel that one must show a need for the law before one can go making laws. Discrimination based on non-job-related things *should* be illegal period. You shouldn't lose your job because you are a smoker, for example. Gay's are in a similar position. They are different than straights because they don't share the same sexual situations. So what. Single men and women don't share the same sexual situations (i.e. committment) as married couples do either. Don't get me wrong, I like and appreciate gays for who they are (I'm bisexual, and quite partial to good looking gay men myself), I just don't feel they have the right to flaunt their sexuality since it may offend others. Cheers, --JSol
jrc@ritcv.UUCP (James R. Carbin) (03/19/85)
> I'm curious. Why do gay people like to be so visible. Why is it so important > for gays to be able to proudly say in the middle of a crowd that he/she is > gay. What if I was in a crowded theater and I yelled "fire". It almost > sounds like they want to legalize that. > ................ > > Cheers, > --JSol I can give one explanation and it has nothing to do with the idea of "flaunting" one's sexuality. Once an individual decides (for whatever reason which could include potential attempted blackmail) to come totally out of the closet, the individual will often feel not only embarassed, but guilty that they have been somehow dishonest with their friends, family, and co-workers by having kept their true feelings hidden for so many years. It is not particularly easy to face up to this situation, but having finally done so, the individual wants to never again deceive anyone else. It is not a matter of saying, "I want you to accept my lifestyle," but rather saying, "I am gay, I don't want to deceive you, I'm not asking for your approval but I do want you to learn about my sexual orientation from me rather than from a third-party." In effect, the individual is trying to say, I want you to be my friend, and I think that I should be up front with you; if you can not accept me, I understand, but the probability of being hurt has been sharply reduced for both parties. I speak from experience. I find myself in just this type of situation. Initially, I felt it necessary to finally be honest with so many people who I had deceived for so long. And now, before I mislead a potential friend, I want them to know the truth. I have found that the reaction to my candidness has been *extremely* positive. The number of negative experiences could be counted on one hand. And as I have said, it is not an attempt to flaunt my sexuality nor change anyone's mind, but what I consider to be nothing more than saving a friend from a potentially embarassing situation. i.e. "Do you know that j.r. is gay?" response: "Oh yes, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in our friendship." I'm sure that many do not agree with my attitude, nor do I suggest that this would work for everyone, but my very positive experiences with this approach has worked well with my friends, (both old and new.) j.r. {allegra,seismo}!rochester!ritcv!jrc
sdo@brunix.UUCP (Scott Oaks) (03/19/85)
Gay people like to be visible for the same reason that straight people
like to be visible. There is a certain, very nice feeling which we
all derive from being in love, showing affection, etc. and gay people
quite naturally like to take advantage of this. It gives them the
same good feeling which openly blatant heterosexuals have enjoyed
for years.
On another level, it is also necessary for gays to be visible simply because
not being visible denies their existence: it's altogether too easy for
people to cling to their ill-conceived stereotypes, to argue that
"there's no problem with gays and discrimination", to think that they've
never met a gay person if all gay people adopt a straight-jacketed role
and remain asexual in public. This is an unacceptable position in which
to place anyone.
I do feel sorry for those who are offended by "blatant" gays--certainly
I wish for no one to be offended. I in fact feel even worse for those
who are offended by blatant heterosexuals. So perhaps we all should
go back into the closet--I for one will, just as soon as all the straight
people do.
Scott Oaks
{decvax, ihnp4, allegra}!brunix!sdoshore@adobe.UUCP (Andrew Shore) (03/19/85)
> I'm curious. Why do gay people like to be so visible. Why is it so important > for gays to be able to proudly say in the middle of a crowd that he/she is > gay. What if I was in a crowded theater and I yelled "fire". It almost > sounds like they want to legalize that. I think you've got it backwards. Gay people are inherently INVISIBLE. Unlike many minority groups (and in spite of the stereotypes) you cannot tell a gay person "by sight" -- by their physical appearance, the color of their skin, their clothing, .... Because of this, gay people are simply assumed to be straight in many situations. Gay people can "pass" unidentified (if they so choose) in mainstream society. When I was an undergrad at Cornell, the gay student organization promoted a concept called "National Gay Bluejeans Day" -- a day when all gay people were supposed to wear bluejeans to identify themselves, show solidarity, etc. It was AMAZING how this got many straight people up in arms. The reaction was: How dare those gays prohibit MY right to wear jeans today. People might think that I'M gay! What else am I going to wear? The whole point was to emphasize that gays are otherwise unidentifiable -- that we blend in like bluejean-clad students. And that anyone you know (your roommate, your professor, your son or daughter) just might be gay without your knowing it. Because of this invisiblity, many gay people make a point of identifying themselves as such as a consiousness-raising gesture. The message being: You know me and respect me as a {friend, collegue, ...} but did you also know that I am gay? You see, you can't tell by looking, but we are everywhere, and your assumptions that everyone around you is "just like you" may not be quite right. Certainly there is a risk of "offending" others, but do you really care? The benefits of opening someones eyes should far outweigh the costs. Quentin Crisp once said that gay people run around saying "we are just like everyone else" but that will never work because "everyone else" doesn't run around saying that. --Andy
rjd@linus.UUCP (Robert DeBenedictis) (03/20/85)
O--------------------------------------------------------------O
The opinions expressed in this article are my own and do not
necessarily reflect the opinions of the MITRE Corporation.
O--------------------------------------------------------------O
JSol> I'm curious. Why do gay people like to be so visible.
JSol> Why is it so important for gays to be able to proudly
JSol> say in the middle of a crowd that he/she is gay. What
JSol> if I was in a crowded theater and I yelled "fire".
JSol> It almost sounds like they want to legalize that.
It is important to be able to proudly state that one is gay because
it is not an easy accomplishment. And, Why should it bother anyone?
If someone finds homosexuality disgusting, is it my problem? People
should just know that gay people exist, and if they're going to be
disgusted every time they become aware of some gay person, then,
they're going to be disgusted a lot. I don't expect straights to
keep their sexuality a secret. The details of their sex-life are
another matter. Somehow, people seem to vividly associate being
gay with certain particular acts. When you tell someone you're gay
they almost act as though you're suddenly wearing the most intimate
details of your sex life on your shirt. Now why is that?
I see my visibility as directly relating to a reduction in oppression
that other, more closeted, gay people endure. It's a matter of politics.
If "they" don't think there are that many people that will take offense
at discrimination against gay people, then "they" will discriminate.
"Gays? Gays! I don't see any gays!"
When I recently went to post a housemate wanted ad in the company's weekly
bulletin, I couldn't. I had used the word gay in my ad. That isn't the
point. The point is when I asked about it, I was told that this was the
first time anyone had ever tried to use the word gay. Almost makes it
look like noone gay has ever worked here before. Almost makes it look
like being gay is some incredibly rare event. Well, it's not. Nearly
everyone has a gay cousin.
JSol> Don't get me wrong, I like and appreciate gays for who
JSol> they are (I'm bisexual, and quite partial to good looking
JSol> gay men myself), I just don't feel they have the right to
JSol> flaunt their sexuality since it may offend others.
All around me everyday, I see indications of heterosexuality. Why
shouldn't I, just as casually, give evidence of my homosexuality.
Because it's nearly impossible. A straight couple in the back of a
suburban theater smooching aren't flaunting anything. A gay couple
however . . .
"Flaunt" should be defined. I often find that there is a double
standard; just bringing my gayness into awareness is sometimes
considered "flaunting it." Straight people rarely make a big
secret of their sexuality, why should I?
Also, there are lots of times when my sexuality it just assumed
to be straight. It doesn't always bother me. But likewise, it
shouldn't be an issue if I point out the error. If someone assumed
I drank whole milk, and I pointed out that I drank lowfat milk,
that should not be any cause for concern.
Robert DeBenedictisbrower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (03/20/85)
In article <201@bbnccv.UUCP> jsol@bbnccv.UUCP (Jon Solomon) writes: >I'm curious. Why do gay people like to be so visible. Why is it so important >for gays to be able to proudly say in the middle of a crowd that he/she is >gay. Actually, it isn't that I want to stand up to proclaim my sexuality before the world, it is that I do not wish to be bound by any restrictions which are not applied to *all*. Straight people think nothing of walking down the street holding the hand of a motos, why should I be forced to have to think about wether or not I will be killed for walking down the street holding the hand of a motss. Why shouldn't I take my 'other half' to company picnics and parties? (I take him.) >My point is, discrimination based on race is currently illegal. If someone >actually does it they can get into BIG trouble. This gives the individual >black (or hispanic) a great deal of power. I question whether this is >reasonable. Certainly I don't condone discrimination, but I feel that one >must show a need for the law before one can go making laws. Discrimination >based on non-job-related things *should* be illegal period. You shouldn't >lose your job because you are a smoker, for example. Gay's are in a similar >position. They are different than straights because they don't share the >same sexual situations. So what. Single men and women don't share the same >sexual situations (i.e. committment) as married couples do either. Well, blacks have nowhere near made up from the the effects of the discrimination against them, they are still paying in that their unemployment is higher, for example. Neither have gays, except perhaps arround the major gay centers like LA, NYC, and SF. Even in these "Mecca's" one is more likely to be killed or have other "personal" crimes (as opposed to purely "property" crimes) committed against one. I agree that (skin color/sexual orientation/religion/ marital status/sex) shouldn't make any difference, but untill everyone agrees on that fact, it does make a difference. >Don't get me wrong, I like and appreciate gays for who they are (I'm >bisexual, and quite partial to good looking gay men myself), I just don't >feel they have the right to flaunt their sexuality since it may offend >others. > >Cheers, >--JSol If I am expected to hide my lover from everybody, I won't be there. Or another way of putting it is to change every "gay" in your above paragraph to "straight". Do straight people consider it to be flaunting it when they walk down the street holding hands? Well, I don't either. That's it for now, -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower
ped@ahuta.UUCP (p.davidson) (03/21/85)
REFERENCES: <201@bbnccv.UUCP> **** SLIGHT FLAME ON **** It is not a matter of wanting to be so visible as a gay but we don't want to worry about losing a job, being kicked out of our homes just becasue we are gay. I would like to advertise for a gay roommate without having to fear that if found out I lose all the above. I would like to let people know that I am gay, so that if there is another person gay, who is hiding, might meet with me. We as gays would like to be able to walk about the earth meet people of our kind, not have to hide and fear for our survival, to be able to openly try to meet others, with the same perference. I don't like looking at someone and wondering if he is gay, asking for a date, finding out he is not gay and getting him mad. I would like to know who is gay and just ask them and prevent all the hassels. Interestingly those people who fear that we will harm there children. would know who we are if we did not have to hide, and then they could their little brats away from us.
ecl@ahutb.UUCP (e.c.leeper) (03/23/85)
REFERENCES: <201@bbnccv.UUCP>, <536@ahuta.UUCP> Well, I've put on my asbestos suit, so here goes... > I would like to advertise for a gay roommate without > having to fear that if found out I lose all the above. Why? Is it reasonable for people to advertise for an Italian roommate, or a short roommate, or a non-handicapped roommate, or a white roommate? Now while I will admit that there are reasonable restrictions (an orthodox Jew should be able to advertise for a roommate who will be willing to maintain a kosher household, for example), the question of gayness vs. straightness seems more a question of other people accepting your lifestyles, not insisting that they adopt yours (right?). > I > like to let people know that I am gay, so that if there is another > person gay, who is hiding, might meet with me. In case cited, the person was advertising for a roommate, not a partner. If what you're advertising for *is* a partner (SO, whatever), I wouldn't be surprised if the company wouldn't let you do so in their classifieds. They wouldn't let straights do it either. (Or bi's.) Should they allow ads like "Car for sale by gay male"? > I don't > like looking at someone and wondering if he is gay, asking for a > date, finding out he is not gay and getting him mad. I would like > to know who is gay and just ask them and prevent all the hassels. But what if he's not gay and doesn't get mad? You seem to be saying that all straights get mad if they're asked for a date by a gay. It's just not true. It just doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose in this sort of ad to indicate "gay". Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!ecl
rob@ptsfa.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (03/23/85)
In article <201@bbnccv.UUCP> jsol@bbnccv.UUCP (Jon Solomon) writes: >I'm curious. Why do gay people like to be so visible. I think this has to do with the biases in your perceptions: First of all which gay people are you talking about? If you are talking about strangers, your question is basically tautological. If you are talking about strangers, you are basically saying "Why are people who I can visibly recognize as gay so visibly recognizable as gay?" Second, what do you mean "so visible"? Do you mean "why do gay people act in ways I think of as ways that only gay people act?" Well, there are ways that I see only straight people acting; why do they act those disgusting ways? [ :-) ] The answer is [FLAME ON!] that people don't behave in ways just to suit your taste, Mr. Center of the Universe!!!!!! -- Rob Bernardo, Pacific Bell, San Francisco, California {ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!rob _^__ ~/ \_.\ _ ~/ \_\ ~/ \_________~/ ~/ /\ /\ _/ \ / \ _/ \ _/ \ \ /
muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) (03/26/85)
In article <576@ahutb.UUCP> ecl@ahutb.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >REFERENCES: <201@bbnccv.UUCP>, <536@ahuta.UUCP> > >Well, I've put on my asbestos suit, so here goes... > >> I would like to advertise for a gay roommate without >> having to fear that if found out I lose all the above. > >Why? Is it reasonable for people to advertise for an Italian roommate, or a >short roommate, or a non-handicapped roommate, or a white roommate? Now while >I will admit that there are reasonable restrictions (an orthodox Jew should be >able to advertise for a roommate who will be willing to maintain a kosher >household, for example), the question of gayness vs. straightness seems more a >question of other people accepting your lifestyles, not insisting that they >adopt yours (right?). Hang on here. I think your analogies are inappropriate. It's more like advertising for a female or male roommate. Suppose I (being female) don't want to live with some strange male, so I put in an ad for a female roommate? Is there something wrong with this? I would say that this is reasonable. > >> I >> like to let people know that I am gay, so that if there is another >> person gay, who is hiding, might meet with me. > >In case cited, the person was advertising for a roommate, not a partner. >If what you're advertising for *is* a partner (SO, whatever), I wouldn't be >surprised if the company wouldn't let you do so in their classifieds. They >wouldn't let straights do it either. (Or bi's.) > I don't see the relevance of this. I also think that it is unlikely that people would *bother* trying to advertise for a partner in the classifieds, since the personals exist for such purposes, and anyone who might be avail- able/interested would certainly look in the personals rather than the classifieds. >Should they allow ads like "Car for sale by gay male"? > No, nor ads like "Car for sale by straight female." The thing here is not analogous either. In this case, sexual preference is unlikely to have any- thing to do with the sale of the car. >> I don't >> like looking at someone and wondering if he is gay, asking for a >> date, finding out he is not gay and getting him mad. I would like >> to know who is gay and just ask them and prevent all the hassels. > >But what if he's not gay and doesn't get mad? You seem to be saying that all >straights get mad if they're asked for a date by a gay. It's just not true. > >It just doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose in this sort of ad to indicate >"gay". > > Evelyn C. Leeper > ...ihnp4!ahutb!ecl Yes, it most definitely serves a purpose. I know that I feel that I should have who I like as a roommate. If I happen to want a 7' redheaded female roommate, I should be able to search for one. After all, *I* am the one that has to live with this person. In the same way, the prospective roommate should have a choice as to me. The purpose of an ad like this is to get the desired type of person applying. It might be argued that it is more appropriate to screen the people when they apply, but it is more work, and as in my analogy above, people *do* advertise for, say, only women to even bother applying, so that less time gets wasted by both parties. Muffy
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (03/27/85)
In article <576@ahutb.UUCP> ecl@ahutb.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >REFERENCES: <201@bbnccv.UUCP>, <536@ahuta.UUCP> > >Why? Is it reasonable for people to advertise for an Italian roommate, or a >short roommate, or a non-handicapped roommate, or a white roommate? Certainly. A person can advertise for anything they want, within legal limits. There's no law against any of the above. _You_ may find the practice offensive, but it's reasonable from the advertiser's point of view, especially when seeking to share living quarters. >Should they allow ads like "Car for sale by gay male"? Irrelevant. You aren't going to live with someone you sell a car to. The question of mutually acceptable life styles doesn't enter into the transaction. >But what if he's not gay and doesn't get mad? You seem to be saying that all >straights get mad if they're asked for a date by a gay. It's just not true. It's true often enough that I can understand wanting to avoid the situation. Those who do get mad tend to get _very_ mad. Why set yourself up for possible verbal and/or physical abuse unnecessarily? >It just doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose in this sort of ad to indicate >"gay". It serves the useful purpose of a preliminary screening of applicants. The same purpose is served by stating monthly rent. Why waste your time with people who can't afford to be your room mate? Why waste it with people who don't want to be your room mate? BTW, I'm not gay. The one time in my life I ever shared accomodations was a year spent living with a lesbian friend. She and I got along very well by not getting in each others' way and we remain friends to this day. I think our situation was unusual, however, and certainly anyone has the right to choose whom they will share their _home_ with on any basis they want. -- -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe