up547413042@ucdavis.UUCP (up547413042) (09/15/85)
This is my first time posting, so I hope this works out okay. Initially, I had only one reason to post, but now that I've gone through all the news, I'd like to comment on a few things mentioned before in this group. First, the original question. I was wondering how many people who read the netnews and this group are actually out at work. I'm in a very weird situation myself. One person (the technical writer) knows I'm gay. She's cool, and I knew she would be so I told her. My boss (the director of the department) is a friend from college and Dungeons and Dragons games during college. He does not know I'm gay, nor does anybody else there. I've heard some not very nice things said by some of the people there about gay people (lately by people in the sales force) and by my boss. They don't talk about it much, but when they do, it's certainly not favourably. The company, being quite small ( about 30) in kind of family like. It's also pretty young. Most are married, and most have babies. My lover is named Bobby, and I pass him off as a girlfriend since they don't see him ever. Unfortunately, they are getting to want to meet Bobby. What a jam. They're in for quite a shock, and I'm a little nervous about it. I see a lot about coming out and if I get fired, what-the-hell on the net, but we can't afford that. I make the main money, and we've not much in savings. Now while I'm sure I'll get out of this one way or another (I believe the county has a non- discrimination ordinance), it can be tough to work with people who hate you or are afraid of you. I am wondering what the case is for everybody out there. (AT&T sounds really cool). Sorry that was so long winded. I'd like to make a quick mention about a few things I've seen on the net. I don't get to see it very often since I have to come to the university to read it (we don't have it up a work yet, and when we do, we probably won't be getting this group, unfortunately). First, about pornography. Regardless of of whether it is sexist or not, censorship of pornography is a threat to the 1st Amendment and can eventually lead to the encoachment upon the free speech rights of, among others, gay people. I don't believe pornography is the *cause* of any problems anyway; I think it is more likely to be a symptom. If somebody wants to see a woman dominated by a man in a pornographic way, he buys it. I think the reason pornography exits is because there is a demand for it. Society seems to be so screwed up sexually anyway, it's no surprise. I also think pornography acts, for some, as a placebo for love. I certainly don't think it's a simple subject. It is possible that pornography re- enforces (sp.) behaviour, though. I have a legal suggestion for other couples: I have co -benefactors to my life insurance (Bobby and my brother), and I'm going to name my uncle as executor of my estate because I know for sure that he wan't try to cheat my lover or my family. And since he is part of my family, I think it may be safer than a non- member of the family if my dad or brother or someone challenges this appointment in court. But it sure is important to cover your- self. A friend of mine's lover died a while back, and is family tried to take *everything*. Fortunately, his lover left a will, and it was respected. Finally, I am curious as to what people in this group feel about religion, Christian or not. I meet a lot of gay people who are sour on it, but I'm Catholic myself, and have a very loving parish and a great bishop and a nice Dignity (gay Catholics) group. How do people feel about their faiths, if they have (or had) one? What is the response of their clery and community? Should this question be here, in the religion group, or both? Although I'm writing from the UCDavis node, please write me at my work. They don't read my mail (at least, I don't think they do... I'd be sunk by now they did), so it is safe. My address is: ucbvax!ucdavis!disc!chris Chris Young.
flaps@utcs.uucp (Alan J Rosenthal) (09/19/85)
In article <70@ucdavis.UUCP> up547413042@ucdavis.UUCP (up547413042) writes: > First, about pornography. Regardless of of whether it is sexist or not, >censorship of pornography is a threat to the 1st Amendment and can eventually >lead to the encoachment upon the free speech rights of, among others, gay >people. Do you think that there should be censorship of neo-nazi propaganda? Anti-gay propaganda? Pornography is anti-woman propaganda. I don't believe in government-controlled censorship but I do believe in people-controlled censorship. I think that the people must do what they can to prevent the distribution of pornography, nazi literature, and so on. More important than the right to free speech is the right to any kind of meaningful life at all, the right not to have people preaching hatred of you.
jhs@hou2d.UUCP (J.SCHERER) (09/20/85)
> Do you think that there should be censorship of neo-nazi propaganda? > Anti-gay propaganda? No! I very much disagree with both but don't advocate censoring either. I also strongly disagree with stuff put out by religious fundamentalists AND atheists - but they have a right to their opinions so long as they don't force them on me. > Pornography is anti-woman propaganda... ...the right not to have people > preaching hatred of you. Whoa! This is net.motss - I'd assume that what we're discussing is either the all-women or all-men type - it's hard to see the anti-women in any that I've seen. As to the "preaching of hatred" - I've never seen any. Unless you're refering to the really kinky stuff - I usually just avoid that.
henrik@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Larry DeLuca @ The Soup Kitchen) (09/22/85)
> Do you think that there should be censorship of neo-nazi propaganda? > Anti-gay propaganda? Hell, no. i want to know what the enemy is thinking. larry...
mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (09/24/85)
>In article <70@ucdavis.UUCP> up547413042@ucdavis.UUCP (up547413042) writes: >> First, about pornography. Regardless of of whether it is sexist or not, >>censorship of pornography is a threat to the 1st Amendment and can eventually >>lead to the encoachment upon the free speech rights of, among others, gay >>people. > >Do you think that there should be censorship of neo-nazi propaganda? Anti-gay >propaganda? >Pornography is anti-woman propaganda. I don't believe in government-controlled >censorship but I do believe in people-controlled censorship. I think that >the people must do what they can to prevent the distribution of pornography, >nazi literature, and so on. More important than the right to free speech is >the right to any kind of meaningful life at all, the right not to have people >preaching hatred of you. And let's not forget feminist propaganda. Or socialist propaganda. Or anything that Jerry Falwell decides is un-American. I'm all for free speach, except, of course, for those people who disagree with me. Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan "I know what you are. Nut. Screwball. Flake. Lunatic. Fruitcake. Bats in the attic. Psycho. All your dogs aren't barking." "Are too! Are too! Woof! Woof!"
flaps@utcs.uucp (Alan J Rosenthal) (09/24/85)
In article <707@hou2d.UUCP> jhs@hou2d.UUCP (J.SCHERER) writes: >> Pornography is anti-woman propaganda... > >Whoa! This is net.motss - I'd assume that what we're discussing is either >the all-women or all-men type - it's hard to see the anti-women in any that >I've seen. Sorry, I often forget when I'm discussing things in context. But my original idea still remains valid.. pornography is degrading of its subject matter. It presents sex as something totally devoid of love, caresses, or anything other than orgasms, basically. Or if not just orgasms, then exclusively heavy-duty sex. However I must agree that male-male pornography I've seen is much less violent than straight pornography.
rob@ptsfa.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (09/27/85)
In article <881@utcs.uucp> flaps@utcs.UUCP (Alan J Rosenthal) writes: > But my original >idea still remains valid.. pornography is degrading of its subject matter. It >presents sex as something totally devoid of love, caresses, or anything other >than orgasms, basically. Or if not just orgasms, then exclusively heavy-duty >sex. Why is sex without love degrading? Do you feel that there's something bad about sex that EVEN IN ITS DEPICTION it needs to be combined with explicit depictions of expressions of love to make it "okay"?
flaps@utcs.uucp (Alan J Rosenthal) (10/04/85)
>Why is sex without love degrading?
Why is talk of love that is lies degrading? What's wrong with superficial
conversation in the place of friendship?
Sex without love is certainly not immoral. But it is superficial, and
usually silly.uggoodjm@sunybcs.UUCP (a Model I) (10/19/85)
> In article <70@ucdavis.UUCP> up547413042@ucdavis.UUCP (up547413042) writes: > > First, about pornography. Regardless of of whether it is sexist or not, > >censorship of pornography is a threat to the 1st Amendment and can eventually > >lead to the encoachment upon the free speech rights of, among others, gay > >people. > > Do you think that there should be censorship of neo-nazi propaganda? Anti-gay > propaganda? > Pornography is anti-woman propaganda. I don't believe in government-controlled > censorship but I do believe in people-controlled censorship. I think that > the people must do what they can to prevent the distribution of pornography, > nazi literature, and so on. More important than the right to free speech is > the right to any kind of meaningful life at all, the right not to have people > preaching hatred of you. I don't know about most of the people on the net, but MY pornography doesn't even contain women, so how the hell can it defame them? I think this anti-porn stuff is mostly garbage. If I want to read it, so what if you don't like it. Let's be realistic. Porn has existed since nearly the beginning of time, in matriarcal societies as well as patriarcal ones. No one is ever going to eliminate it. And there are some people who use porn as a release. I know that for myself it acted as a release during that slow coming out process. I don't know what I would have done with out it. So why not learn to live and let live? J. Matthew Good uggoodjm@sunybcs