dyer@wivax.UUCP (Stephen Dyer) (07/27/84)
Before this explodes into another useless exchange, let's remember Arndt's history of postings in net.women and net.motss, and realize that he is sorely lacking in any kind of social couth, as evidenced by his written behavior (which is all we have by which to judge.) It actually WOULD be possible to advance the views he states without alienating readers, but he is either unwilling or unable to do so. Controversy for its own sake and inflammatory remarks designed to stir up emotions--any ideas within are buried by the irrelevant. Given this background, why dignify him by stooping to his level? No one who has seen his articles treats him seriously, and neither should we, at least until he behaves in a mature manner. -- /Steve Dyer decvax!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA
arndt@3106.DEC (07/27/84)
Aha Sophie! So we meet again, eh?
So you take umbrage with my choice of words! Too bad. However, since
I'm the kind of warm wonderful person that I am I'll change it for you.
See below.
(By the way penis breath, I wasn't attacking Mike personally. I think it
is safe to say that homosexuals do do all the things I mention below.)
----------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: net.motss
Path: decwrl!decvax!watmath!saquigley
Subject: For Ken Arndt (offensive language)
Posted: Mon Jul 23 15:53:24 1984
(AFS= Adjusted for Sohpie)
Ken Arndt:
}}} You must have swallowed too much semen! You can't read.
I'm not telling you where your morals should be, I'm asking.
(AFS)You may have ingested a little too much ejaculate. Often
an oversupply of potassium affects the vision. May I
suggest you reread my submission? I believe that I am
asking you for your basis for morals.
Perhaps you have a right to suck off your buddy till he
deflates but when you come out in public and try to tell
everyone that what you are doing is right you have to do
more than just say so. Especially in the face of a moral
tradition that is against such behavior!
(AFS)Perhaps you feel that you have a perfect right to do the
things you do as a homosexual (masturbate your buddy without
using your hands or bump his head against the headboard)
but . . . .
Ken, since you are turning to personnal attacks, let me ask you one thing:
have you ever been "sucked off" yourself? If so, I pity the woman who did
this to you.
(Sophie dear, what has the first part of the above sentence to do with the
second part??? Perhaps you just want to talk dirty to me? Let's take it
off line. Thanks for assuming it was a woman! In any case women (one
woman) doesn't do things TO me but WITH me, if that is a distinction you
can understand.)
As there is no reason why you should have a monopoly on vulgarity,
can you do us all a favor and *FUCK OFF* out of this newsgroup.
(There you go again! Speaking for "us all". Tisk tisk! Well I've got
to go now. Write again when you feel the urge.
The guy you love to hate.
Ken Arndt)
Sophie Quigley
...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigleymanis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) (12/06/85)
A few days, a group of five Toronto teenagers was convicted of the murder (by beating) of a 40-year old gay man. The five had, in the course of a boozy evening, decided that they would go and ''beat up a fag'' (their words). So they got in their car, headed out to a cruising area, and shortly after midnight accosted a victim and beat him to death. The five were found guilty and were sentenced to prison terms varying from 9 to 12 years. All of them expressed the sentiment that they got what they deserved. I'm not going to ask what would cause a group of [apparently] normal 15-year olds to do something like that. Apparently, there was no history of homophobic behaviour on the part of any of them, or anything except perhaps a tendency for them to follow the leader a bit too much. (No, I'm not trying to make excuses for them.) As a result, they are each going to spend the next few years in prison. But if their statements are honest, this is going to be something that will haunt each of them for the rest of his life. My problem is that I'm ending up feeling very sorry for these kids. Politically, I ought to be happy that queerbashers were caught and punished. Yet, I can't see any benefit to anyone coming from this tragedy. And I really wish these kids didn't have this hanging over them. I'm beginning to see them as much victims of homophobia as the man they murdered. ----- On a mildly lighter note, I was unable to think of a subject heading for this posting that didn't involve a double entendre. ''Turning the other cheek'' was the best I could do--perhaps I'm just getting too jaded.
reuling@Navajo.ARPA (12/08/85)
In article <116@ubc-cs.UUCP> manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) writes: >A few days, a group of five Toronto teenagers was convicted of the murder >(by beating) of a 40-year old gay man. The five had, in the course of a >boozy evening, decided that they would go and ''beat up a fag'' (their >words). So they got in their car, headed out to a cruising area, and >shortly after midnight accosted a victim and beat him to death. > >The five were found guilty and were sentenced to prison terms varying >from 9 to 12 years. All of them expressed the sentiment that they got >what they deserved. >As a result, they are each going to spend the next few years in prison. >But if their statements are honest, this is going to be something that >will haunt each of them for the rest of his life. > >My problem is that I'm ending up feeling very sorry for these kids. >Politically, I ought to be happy that queerbashers were caught and >punished. Yet, I can't see any benefit to anyone coming from this >tragedy. And I really wish these kids didn't have this hanging over >them. I'm beginning to see them as much victims of homophobia as the >man they murdered. Lordy! The poor guy who happenned to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is DEAD, and you're feeling sorry about his murderers who will probably be out on parole in a few years for good behavior?! It sounds to me as if you think 'homophobia' is some separate 'entity' that CAUSES otherwise normal people to do terrible things. But it wasn't homophobia that killed that man in Toronto. It was five drunk teenagers who did it. Five PEOPLE. Five PEOPLE who should be held accountable for their actions. -J -- John Reuling reuling@su-navajo.arpa Stanford University reuling@navajo.stanford.edu Computer Science Dept fc.jar@stanford.bitnet Stanford, CA 94305 USA glacier!navajo!reuling
boroff@bagels.DEC (E. Boroff, NCSS DECnet/PSI) (12/10/85)
} "A few days ago, a group of five Toronto teenagers was convicted"
"of the murder (by beating) of a 40-year old gay man."
{
It's sad but ironic that these young men will probably fall prey to other
male inmates seeking sexual outlets.
And justice for all...
eric \|/frye@vaxwaller.UUCP (Steve Frye) (12/11/85)
> In article <116@ubc-cs.UUCP> manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) writes: > >A few days, a group of five Toronto teenagers was convicted of the murder > >(by beating) of a 40-year old gay man. The five had, in the course of a > >boozy evening, decided that they would go and ''beat up a fag'' (their > >words). So they got in their car, headed out to a cruising area, and > >shortly after midnight accosted a victim and beat him to death. > > It sounds to me as if you think 'homophobia' is some separate 'entity' > that CAUSES otherwise normal people to do terrible things. But it > wasn't homophobia that killed that man in Toronto. It was five drunk > teenagers who did it. Five PEOPLE. Five PEOPLE who should be held > accountable for their actions. > The sad part is that none of the five would probably have done this on his own. But put them together, add a little alcohol, and we have a group of cold blooded murderers. Yes, I feel sorry them. I am sorry that each of them accepted murdering somebody as 'having fun'. I doubt that a hatred of gays was the cause, hatred of gays was simply the excuse. Definitely they should be held accountable. Accountable for first degree murder. Anything else is unacceptable. Steve Frye Varian Instruments 2700 Mitchell Dr. Walnut Creek, Ca. 94598 {zehntel,amd,fortune,resonex,rtech}!varian!vaxwaller!frye -- Steve Frye Varian Instruments 2700 Mitchell Dr. Walnut Creek, Ca. 94598 {zehntel,amd,fortune,resonex,rtech}!varian!vaxwaller!frye
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (12/12/85)
Why weren't the killers sentenced to life imprisonment or death (if Canada has capital punishment for murder one)? I found the light sentences they received shocking; they weren't all legally juveniles, were they? Are they eventually eligible for parole, as well? What could possibly be a clearer case of premeditated murder, or of pure malice, with utterly no motivation (in any sense which the law recognizes or ought to), and literally NO extenuating circumstances? How does this differ in kind from the Dan White case, with the exception that the criminals and victim weren't public figures, and thus not suitable subjects for mythologizing? Pardon me for saying so, but I find any sympathy for the "kids" a serious sign of real decadence in civilization: an expression of a squeamish and scandalous unwillingness to enforce basic sanctions against the most heinous acts. Vince, what makes your feelings any different from those of the jurors in the Dan White case who were overcome with pity over the "tragic" effects of occupational stress on a decent guy (White)? I'd like to believe I can support worthy causes like death penalty abolition, but frankly I think I'd relish the chance to be a member of a firing squad that would blow these "kids" out of this world. Ron Rizzo
manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) (12/13/85)
In article <286@Navajo.ARPA> reuling@Navajo.UUCP (John Reuling) writes, in response to a posting of mine regarding the conviction of five teenagers who murdered a gay man in Toronto, >Lordy! The poor guy who happenned to be in the wrong place at the wrong >time is DEAD, and you're feeling sorry about his murderers who will >probably be out on parole in a few years for good behavior?! > >It sounds to me as if you think 'homophobia' is some separate 'entity' >that CAUSES otherwise normal people to do terrible things. But it >wasn't homophobia that killed that man in Toronto. It was five drunk >teenagers who did it. Five PEOPLE. Five PEOPLE who should be held >accountable for their actions. No, I was attempting to state the exact opposite. I'm not minimising the seriousness of their crime, or suggesting that they don't deserve a long prison sentence. The point I was making was that they are as much their own victims as Mr Zeller, the man they murdered. In a society in which gay people are constantly devalued, young people with no apparent homophobic attitudes are nonetheless constantly inundated with anti-gay slurs and innuendos. In some sense it isn't surprising that under the influence of alcohol some of the surface tolerance scrapes off, exposing the bigotry beneath. What's surprising is that it doesn't happen more often. So we have to look for causes. Are these five youths responsible? You bet. They brutally beat a man to death. But what possessed them to think, even in a drunken stupor, that beating up a faggot was ok? You have to look at their social context, at the attitudes of their peer group, and at the homophobic content of much of the mass media, to realise that they simply acted out what others only talked about. So I'm sorry for them, because their lives will be (to some extent at least) blighted by their behaviour. Perhaps if these teenagers had realised what their evening's entertainment was going to do to them over the next decade, Mr Zeller might still be alive today, and perhaps none of them would be going to prison. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished, but only that we aren't going to stop queerbashing by arresting queerbashers (EVEN THOUGH WE MUST CONTINUE TO ARREST, TRY, AND IMPRISON PEOPLE GUILTY OF QUEERBASHING). The only genuine way to stop queerbashing is to make everyone aware of what it does to *him*, in that he is going to go to prison for a long time. [I use the masculine pronoun because very few women are queerbashers.] Final (moralistic) note: you can be very sorry for someone, even as you are punishing him/her.
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (12/13/85)
Well, if the Magnificent 7 by some geographical freak of sentencing land in Ontario's Kingston Penitentiary, locale for the movie "Fortune & Men's Eyes," they'll be treated to more than just cursory cruising; on the other hand, it might give them the opportunity to view some great drag shows. On the other hand, they'll be on the ungentle receiving end (no pun intended --- I couldn't think of a better....) of the very same homophobia they real- ized in their brutal crime. That may not meet CCLU standards of justice, but there is a crude "just deserts" in the Talonic equivalence and ironic reversal in the upcoming fates of these yet-to-be prison "punks." Before AIDS, fag-bashers often raped their victims before murdering them; there seems to be more than a marginal sexual element to many of these crimes. Gang-rape isn't pretty, but sadistic killing is even less so. At least the "punks" will be permitted to continue drawing breath, whatever the resultant states of their already screwed-up psyches. And justice for all? Only 9-12 years for murder? Ron Rizzo
manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) (12/14/85)
Gee, I really seem to have difficulty expressing myself. I wasn't saying these kids didn't deserve their prison sentence, but only that I felt they were victims too. Canada doesn't have the death penalty; there certainly are life sentences, but a common premeditated murder sentence is 25 years. Nine to twelve years is on the light end of the spectrum, but is certainly a common murder sentence. In any case, it's more than what Dan White got. Had I been called to the Dan White jury, I would have been excused pronto because I'm opposed to capital punishment. However, I certainly wouldn't have let my sympathy for the man (he was obviously extremely disturbed) interfere with sending him to prison for a very long time. The same is true here. I guess what it comes down to is the distinction between punishment and vengeance. Sending someone to a Canadian prison for even five years is a pretty awful punishment; all I've been saying is that even though it had to be done, I take no joy in it.
rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (12/14/85)
In article <125@ubc-cs.UUCP> manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) writes: >In article <286@Navajo.ARPA> reuling@Navajo.UUCP (John Reuling) writes, >in response to a posting of mine regarding the conviction of five teenagers >who murdered a gay man in Toronto, > >>Lordy! The poor guy who happenned to be in the wrong place at the wrong >>time is DEAD, and you're feeling sorry about his murderers who will >>probably be out on parole in a few years for good behavior?! >> >>It sounds to me as if you think 'homophobia' is some separate 'entity' >>that CAUSES otherwise normal people to do terrible things. But it >>wasn't homophobia that killed that man in Toronto. It was five drunk >>teenagers who did it. Five PEOPLE. Five PEOPLE who should be held >>accountable for their actions. > >No, I was attempting to state the exact opposite. I'm not minimising the >seriousness of their crime, or suggesting that they don't deserve a long >prison sentence. The point I was making was that they are as much their >own victims as Mr Zeller, the man they murdered. In a society in which How can you be your own victim? Aren't you viewing their homophobia as a separate entity right in this very sentence? >own victims as Mr Zeller, the man they murdered. In a society in which >gay people are constantly devalued, young people with no apparent >homophobic attitudes are nonetheless constantly inundated with anti-gay >slurs and innuendos. In some sense it isn't surprising that under the >influence of alcohol some of the surface tolerance scrapes off, exposing >the bigotry beneath. What's surprising is that it doesn't happen more >often. > If you are saying people are not born homophobic, they become homophobic from conditioning in their homophobic environment, I agree. >So we have to look for causes. Are these five youths responsible? You bet. >They brutally beat a man to death. But what possessed them to think, >even in a drunken stupor, that beating up a faggot was ok? You have to look >at their social context, at the attitudes of their peer group, and at the >homophobic content of much of the mass media, to realise that they simply >acted out what others only talked about. Are you saying the fagbashers were NOT homophobic, merely stupid enough to act out the verbalized dreams of homophobes around them? > >So I'm sorry for them, because their lives will be (to some extent at least) >blighted by their behaviour. Perhaps if these teenagers had realised what >their evening's entertainment was going to do to them over the next decade, >Mr Zeller might still be alive today, and perhaps none of them would be >going to prison. > They probably thought they could get away with it. Many people do think it's okay to kill a fag. In some parts of the country, I'm sure it IS open season on queers. Gosh, in some parts of the country not too long ago, it was open season on niggers. >That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished, but only that we aren't going >to stop queerbashing by arresting queerbashers (EVEN THOUGH WE MUST CONTINUE >TO ARREST, TRY, AND IMPRISON PEOPLE GUILTY OF QUEERBASHING). The only >genuine way to stop queerbashing is to make everyone aware of what it does >to *him*, in that he is going to go to prison for a long time. [I use the >masculine pronoun because very few women are queerbashers.] > Couldn't agree more. But one way to make everyone aware that a fagbasher will go to prison for a long time IS to have good news coverage of the arrest, trial, and conviction of fagbashers. >Final (moralistic) note: you can be very sorry for someone, even as you are >punishing him/her. I wouldn't feel sorry for the fagbashers. I would regret, though, that the culture in general is homophobic and instills violently homophobic attitudes in some individuals.
manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vince Manis) (12/14/85)
I find it hard to respond to Ron Rizzo's most recent remarks concerning the Toronto queerbashers, and the appropriateness of their prison sentence. For one thing, I don't disagree with his remarks concerning the lightness of the sentence (though I'm sure I would have difficulty surviving a month in a prison, myself). No problem: they broke the law, and whether the victim was a gay or a homophobe is irrelevant. As I said in a recent posting, the sentence is a bit light, but fairly typical for teenaged criminals in Canada. But why is it necessary to take delight in the fact that the bad guys got punished? Isn't it just barely possible that some of them have consciences, and will over the next few years come to realise what a horrible thing they have done? In any case, I know my original argument must have some merit, because Ken Arndt opposed it. -- Vincent Manis, the last (?) of the bleeding-heart liberals.
laura@l5.uucp (Laura Creighton) (12/15/85)
The thing that scares me is this attitude that ``homophobia'' in any way is responsible for the killing. The world is full of people who hate homosexuals, but most of them don't beat people to death. Can't you see that whatever caused those people to beat to death a Gay man was something very, very sick about these people? When I lived in Toronto, a Chinese labourer was beaten to death not 3 blocks away from where I lived. This was blamed on ``anti-chinese'' prejudice. Don't worry about those kids much. Next year they are due to release the boy who raped, tortured and murdered a friend of mine while he was 16. He's been in jail 4 years now, and is getting time off for good behaviour. All I can say is that I am damn glad I am not living in Toronto. It is very sad that brutes who would beat to death a total stranger on whim exists. But I am not going to let this sadness keep me from seeing that if you release such people back onto the streets in four years you may be sentencing some unknown Gay man to death. Don't all the non-violent members of society have thhe right to better protection? Or is killing people at semi-random believed just because homophobia is everyone's problem? Disgusted, and frightened for a lot of friends, -- Laura Creighton sun!l5!laura (that is ell-five, not fifteen) l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa
keith@whuxl.UUCP (TITUS) (12/17/85)
> The thing that scares me is this attitude that ``homophobia'' in any > way is responsible for the killing. The world is full of people who > hate homosexuals, but most of them don't beat people to death. Can't > you see that whatever caused those people to beat to death a Gay man > was something very, very sick about these people? When I lived in > Toronto, a Chinese labourer was beaten to death not 3 blocks away from > where I lived. This was blamed on ``anti-chinese'' prejudice. > > Don't worry about those kids much. Next year they are due to release > the boy who raped, tortured and murdered a friend of mine while he was > 16. He's been in jail 4 years now, and is getting time off for good > behaviour. All I can say is that I am damn glad I am not living in > Toronto. > > It is very sad that brutes who would beat to death a total stranger on > whim exists. But I am not going to let this sadness keep me from > seeing that if you release such people back onto the streets in four > years you may be sentencing some unknown Gay man to death. Don't > all the non-violent members of society have thhe right to better protection? > Or is killing people at semi-random believed just because homophobia is > everyone's problem? > > Disgusted, and frightened for a lot of friends, > -- > Laura Creighton > sun!l5!laura (that is ell-five, not fifteen) > l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa Thank you Laura, for the best response I've seen yet to this ridiculous babble I've been reading about 'feeling sorry' for cold-blooded killers. I too am thankful that I don't live in Toronto or anyplace else where capital punishment is not legal. Forget the fact that the man was gay, or black or white or Catholic or Protestant or ect............ He was a human being, and he was BRUTALLY murdered. YES, I do expect to exact equal if not more punishment from those bastards who did this. I do not believe it is the courts job to say, "well after all, he was nothing but a homosexual anyway, and who are we to ruin 5 perfectly good lives". That is bull----. There job is to here the facts of the case and then to dispose justice. The State of New Jersey has capital punish- ment, and this scum would probably be fried by now or at least given the lethal injection they deserve, and I, and society would be a better place for it. I am sick to death of thinking I have to apologize for being gay to these idiots. When they get off of these type of charges with light sentences society thinks it OK. Well, its not! And to my liberal friends, you may make all the excuses in the world, but wait till it happens to YOU. Signed, Keep Liberals out of my town, Keith Titus Bell Laboratories Whippany, NJ
laura@l5.uucp (Laura Creighton) (12/17/85)
I have a real problem thinking about people who would beat someone else to death. Basically, I have trouble believing that they are human beings. I mean, they have the right number of limbs and are shaped into the right shape, but there is something crucial missing. I treat them as dangerous wild animals. I have dozens of Gay friends in Toronto. I don't want any of them to get killed. There is no question in my mind that 5, 10 or 100 years in prison couldn't in any way recompensate me for my friends. Prison as punishment, therefore, is not what I am interested in. I want those murderers locked up, and I want them locked up until it is absolutely clear that they are not going to go out and murder anybody else. And if it is never clear, then I *never* want them let out. I find it very sad that they are dangerous animals. But I will find it a lot sadder if I discover that in 8 years a friend of mine is killed by one of these punks upon their release from prison. Or if I find that *anyone* is killed by them. Homophobia did not make these people kill a man, though it may have determined that a Gay man was killed rather than a Black man or a Jew or any other person that it has been convenient to hate in the past. Something very seriously wrong in those people caused them to *kill* someone. And I am not sure that it is clear that you can have something that wrong with you and still be human - or that having lost it you can ever regain it. -- Laura Creighton sun!l5!laura (that is ell-five, not fifteen) l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa
timm@zaphod.UUCP (Tim Melanchuk) (12/17/85)
In article <1635@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >Why weren't the killers sentenced to life imprisonment or death (if Canada >has capital punishment for murder one)? I found the light sentences they >received shocking; they weren't all legally juveniles, were they? Are they >eventually eligible for parole, as well? Yes, I believe they were all legally juveniles (ie. less than 18) according to Canada's Young Offenders Act. The encouraging fact about this case is that they were *not* tried under that much more lenient act but instead had the case moved into adult court where they were tried as adults. The are basically three categories of killing in Canada; - first degree murder; premeditated intent to murder - second degree murder; unpremeditated murder (heat of moment) - manslaughter; killing where actions may be expected to harm but with no intention to kill ( eg. drunk driving ) I don't recall which crime they were convicted on except that it was not first degree murder which carries a mandatory life sentence with no possibility of parole for at least 25 years. Without passing judgement on Canadian legal definitions of killing, it seems reasonable that they did not set out to intentionally murder. -- Sex is nobody's business except the three people involved. Tim Melanchuk {ihnp4|alberta}!sask!zaphod!timm
on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) (12/18/85)
>No, I was attempting to state the exact opposite. I'm not minimising the >seriousness of their crime, or suggesting that they don't deserve a long >prison sentence. The point I was making was that they are as much their >own victims as Mr Zeller, the man they murdered. In a society in which >gay people are constantly devalued, young people with no apparent ^^ ^^^^^^^^ >homophobic attitudes are nonetheless constantly inundated with anti-gay ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ >slurs and innuendos. In some sense it isn't surprising that under the >influence of alcohol some of the surface tolerance scrapes off, exposing >the bigotry beneath. What's surprising is that it doesn't happen more >often. IT does happen ...OFTEN... this is the point that Gay people have been trying to get across to the heterosexually biased population. Homophobia is so deeply institutionalised in our culture that people like you can honestly state that it is "not apparent", we are so used to the background level of this homophobic "noise that we don't hear it any more. Sure spend a little time with Jr High School or High school age kids and you will become very aware of how pervasive Verbal and physical Fag bashing is with todays youth. If surface tolerance is so thin that a few beers can give individuals a Green light to kick the shit out of Gay People it is because we live in a society that is infected with irrational tabus fostered by centurys of intolerance and behavior modifying fear tactics. IT is every bodys work to combat this before it spreads to other personality types again. Many Feminists have been telling us that Women have been enduring this kind of behavior for a Long time now. In more than one historical context Mass genocide has begun with Gays and Women. We ARE in a "NEW INQUISITION" these patterns HAVE occured before, there WILL be more casualties, and we MUST confront the root cause of the intolerance that threatens us .... or DIE. Those who are not robbed of their lives, will be robbed of their dignity. When you keep silent in a social situation that turns mildly homophobic you destroy a small part of your own foundation of self respect. You may make an excuse to yourself that keeps you from stopping homophobia on the spot, but somewhere inside you know that there is a part o diminished by your silence. The hustlers and the creeps that "Jason" has been writing about are severly damaged individuals who have totally internalised the image of the Gay as a cloying devious bitch who has no respect for anyone much less themselves, but they are NOT what being Gay is all about , they are the result of homophobia in the extreme. And to those of you who read this and are not Gay, I say, YOU MUST help eradicate homophobia or YOU may be next. You who are afraid to confront anti-Gay remarks from friends and family because you fear being accused yourself! You show a subliminal acceptance of the bigotry. And you set yourself up to be a willing victim when it finally comes your treatment of Blacks in South Africa, but this does not cause others to suspect black ancestry in my genetic past! Why should confronting homophobia betoken closeted homosexual leanings? The prevelance of these fears shows us just how deeply this cultural cancer has spread. How many of you Gay and non-Gay alike know that the long History of Human experience shows that Homosexuality has been with us for all time. That the rest of the Natural world shows ample evidence of same sex genital playwith *no* evidence of hostility attatched to it. Tha had an almost universal reverance and respect for their Gay Shamanic leaders, and that familys were honored and proud to have us as their Sons. That is until the white Man and his Western culture paved their lands and extirpated their traditions in the name of their Guilt Gilded God. These "pioneers" had practised for the rape of this continent on many indigenous peoples in Europe and had gotten away with it. The Romans made special note of the pervasive homosexuality of the ancient Celts. The Spartan state had a "Law" that forced men to marry a women before their 35th birthday because the widespread cultural preference for same sex partnership threatened to drasticly reduce the breeding population. I could go on and on but will refer you to two excelent books that you will find enlightening and empowering.. "Witchcraft and the Gay counterculture" by A Evans "Another Mother tongue" by Judy Grahn >So we have to look for causes. Are these five youths responsible? You bet. >They brutally beat a man to death. But what possessed them to think, >even in a drunken stupor, that beating up a faggot was ok? You have to look >at their social context, at the attitudes of their peer group, and at the >homophobic content of much of the mass media, to realise that they simply ^^^^^^ >acted out what others only talked about. ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ I think I have already addressed the fact that we are all not "simply talking about it" that we are actively engaged in the process of queer-bashing and that the "social context" must be changed or it will cost us everything. >That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished, but only that we aren't going >to stop queerbashing by arresting queerbashers (EVEN THOUGH WE MUST CONTINUE >TO ARREST, TRY, AND IMPRISON PEOPLE GUILTY OF QUEERBASHING). The only >genuine way to stop queerbashing is to make everyone aware of what it does >to *him*, in that he is going to go to prison for a long time. [I use the >masculine pronoun because very few women are queerbashers.] Replacing an atmosphere of tolerance for queerbashing with a harsh set of edicts that instill fear of retribution for the same thing does not address the problem of why people are homophobic. If the culture promotes the idea that heterosexual behavior is the only reasonable behavior, then you are setting a delay fuse on a time bomb that is guaranteed to blow up in your own face at some future point in time. I say that genuine relief from queer bashing will come when Family, school, and clergy lay down their own prejudice about homosexuality and allow it to be developed as a natural and accepted variation in the wide spectrum of human experience. When Parents are so accepting of homosexuality as a potential for their own children, that Gay people can introduce their Lovers to their families without shame or fear. When Same Sex couples and triads etc. can walk freely on our streets holding hands or touching and no-one thinks its anything special or different. (Read just about any Sci-Fi story by Elisabeth Lynn for a refreshing glimpse of what such a world would be like.. esp.. "The Dancers of Arun". "You May say I'm a dreamer, But I'm not the only one. I hope some day you will join us And the world will live as one." John Lennon ( PS .. The Beatles Manager Brian Epstein was Gay and reportedly Loved John very much. It has also been reported that John slept with Brian on some occasions to honor that love) Again the prison is our skull, and they key that frees us all is UNDERSTANDING liberally applied with common sense, and a desire to live your own life free from the prejudices and limitations of bigotry. I realise that the posting I have used as a basis for this reply is basicly in sympathy with the statements I have made and I do not want to give the impression that I am *flaming * it . I have merely used it as a springboard to voice my own opinions on the matter. I will end with one last reference to the above letter. "very few women are queerbashers" The teenagers who killed a man on Polk street in san Fransico last year, were allegedly driven to a fever pitch of homophobia by the Mother of one of the Boys who apparently was a highly vocal homophobe with a strong Evangelical bias against Gays. this was brought out by the defense as a mitigating circumstance that purported to explain the Boys premeditated rampage that ended in death for a Gay Man. (They have just recently been handed heavy sentences for their crime) LUX .. on hplabs!hpda!on Owen Rowley "If your not part of the solution , your part of the precipitate"
on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) (12/18/85)
>No, I was attempting to state the exact opposite. I'm not minimising the >seriousness of their crime, or suggesting that they don't deserve a long >prison sentence. The point I was making was that they are as much their >own victims as Mr Zeller, the man they murdered. In a society in which >gay people are constantly devalued, young people with no apparent ^^ ^^^^^^^^ >homophobic attitudes are nonetheless constantly inundated with anti-gay ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ >slurs and innuendos. In some sense it isn't surprising that under the >influence of alcohol some of the surface tolerance scrapes off, exposing >the bigotry beneath. What's surprising is that it doesn't happen more >often. IT does happen ...OFTEN... this is the point that Gay people have been trying to get across to the heterosexually biased population. Homophobia is so deeply institutionalised in our culture that people like you can honestly state that it is "not apparent", we are so used to the background level of this homophobic "noise that we don't hear it any more. Sure spend a little time with Jr High School or High school age kids and you will become very aware of how pervasive Verbal and physical Fag bashing is with todays youth. If surface tolerance is so thin that a few beers can give individuals a Green light to kick the shit out of Gay People it is because we live in a society that is infected with irrational tabus fostered by centurys of intolerance and behavior modifying fear tactics. IT is every bodys work to combat this before it spreads to other personality types again. Many Feminists have been telling us that Women have been enduring this kind of behavior for a Long time now. In more than one historical context Mass genocide has begun with Gays and Women. We ARE in a "NEW INQUISITION" these patterns HAVE occured before, there WILL be more casualties, and we MUST confront the root cause of the intolerance that threatens us .... or DIE. Those who are not robbed of their lives, will be robbed of their dignity. When you keep silent in a social situation that turns mildly homophobic you destroy a small part of your own foundation of self respect. You may make an excuse to yourself that keeps you from stopping homophobia on the spot, but somewhere inside you know that there is a part of yourself that is diminished by your silence. The hustlers and the creeps that "Jason" has been writing about are severly damaged individuals who have totally internalised the image of the Gay as a cloying devious bitch who has no respect for anyone much less themselves, but they are NOT what being Gay is all about , they are the result of homophobia in the extreme. And to those of you who read this and are not Gay, I say, YOU MUST help eradicate homophobia or YOU may be next. You who are afraid to confront anti-Gay remarks from friends and family because you fear being accused yourself! You show a subliminal acceptance of the bigotry. And you set yourself up to be a willing victim when it finally comes your turn. I deplore the treatment of Blacks in South Africa, but this does not cause others to suspect black ancestry in my genetic past! Why should confronting homophobia betoken closeted homosexual leanings? The prevelance of these fears shows us just how deeply this cultural cancer has spread. How many of you Gay and non-Gay alike know that the long History of Human experience shows that Homosexuality has been with us for all time. That the rest of the Natural world shows ample evidence of same sex genital playwith *no* evidence of hostility attatched to it. That Native American tradition had an almost universal reverance and respect for their Gay Shamanic leaders, and that familys were honored and proud to have us as their Sons. That is until the white Man and his Western culture paved their lands and extirpated their traditions in the name of their Guilt Gilded God. These "pioneers" had practised for the rape of this continent on many indigenous peoples in Europe and had gotten away with it. The Romans made special note of the pervasive homosexuality of the ancient Celts. The Spartan state had a "Law" that forced men to marry a women before their 35th birthday because the widespread cultural preference for same sex partnership threatened to drasticly reduce the breeding population. I could go on and on but will refer you to two excelent books that you will find enlightening and empowering.. "Witchcraft and the Gay counterculture" by A Evans "Another Mother tongue" by Judy Grahn >So we have to look for causes. Are these five youths responsible? You bet. >They brutally beat a man to death. But what possessed them to think, >even in a drunken stupor, that beating up a faggot was ok? You have to look >at their social context, at the attitudes of their peer group, and at the >homophobic content of much of the mass media, to realise that they simply ^^^^^^ >acted out what others only talked about. ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ I think I have already addressed the fact that we are all not "simply talking about it" that we are actively engaged in the process of queer-bashing and that the "social context" must be changed or it will cost us everything. >That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished, but only that we aren't going >to stop queerbashing by arresting queerbashers (EVEN THOUGH WE MUST CONTINUE >TO ARREST, TRY, AND IMPRISON PEOPLE GUILTY OF QUEERBASHING). The only >genuine way to stop queerbashing is to make everyone aware of what it does >to *him*, in that he is going to go to prison for a long time. [I use the >masculine pronoun because very few women are queerbashers.] Replacing an atmosphere of tolerance for queerbashing with a harsh set of edicts that instill fear of retribution for the same thing does not address the problem of why people are homophobic. If the culture promotes the idea that heterosexual behavior is the only reasonable behavior, then you are setting a delay fuse on a time bomb that is guaranteed to blow up in your own face at some future point in time. I say that genuine relief from queer bashing will come when Family, school, and clergy lay down their own prejudice about homosexuality and allow it to be developed as a natural and accepted variation in the wide spectrum of human experience. When Parents are so accepting of homosexuality as a potential for their own children, that Gay people can introduce their Lovers to their families without shame or fear. When Same Sex couples and triads etc. can walk freely on our streets holding hands or touching and no-one thinks its anything special or different. (Read just about any Sci-Fi story by Elisabeth Lynn for a refreshing glimpse of what such a world would be like.. esp.. "The Dancers of Arun". "You May say I'm a dreamer, But I'm not the only one. I hope some day you will join us And the world will live as one." John Lennon ( PS .. The Beatles Manager Brian Epstein was Gay and reportedly Loved John very much. It has also been reported that John slept with Brian on some occasions to honor that love) Again the prison is our skull, and they key that frees us all is UNDERSTANDING liberally applied with common sense, and a desire to live your own life free from the prejudices and limitations of bigotry. I realise that the posting I have used as a basis for this reply is basicly in sympathy with the statements I have made and I do not want to give the impression that I am *flaming * it . I have merely used it as a springboard to voice my own opinions on the matter. I will end with one last reference to the above letter. "very few women are queerbashers" The teenagers who killed a man on Polk street in san Fransico last year, were allegedly driven to a fever pitch of homophobia by the Mother of one of the Boys who apparently was a highly vocal homophobe with a strong Evangelical bias against Gays. this was brought out by the defense as a mitigating circumstance that purported to explain the Boys premeditated rampage that ended in death for a Gay Man. (They have just recently been handed heavy sentences for their crime) LUX .. on hplabs!hpda!on Owen Rowley "If your not part of the solution , your part of the precipitate"
flaps@utcs.uucp (Alan J Rosenthal) (12/20/85)
>Why weren't the killers sentenced to life imprisonment or death (if Canada >has capital punishment for murder one)? I found the light sentences they >received shocking; they weren't all legally juveniles, were they? Are they >eventually eligible for parole, as well? > ... > >I'd like to believe I can support worthy causes like death penalty abolition, >but frankly I think I'd relish the chance to be a member of a firing squad >that would blow these "kids" out of this world. > > > Ron Rizzo Sentencing in Canada is very inconsistent. There is very little in the way of standards or precedents for sentencing. Though people like this would never get acquitted unless they were cops, people like this all get very varied sentences. I think the best conclusion is that the judge was not gay. :-) Canada does not have a death penalty except for killing a cop. (Sounds like a weird case to pick as 'worse', but of course I can see why it's done...) I find abolition of death penalty a difficult question ONLY UNTIL I realize that the people who would get officially killed if there was a death penalty will not be queerbashers, but people like me. Think about it. Alan J Rosenthal {ihnp4|allegra|linus|decvax}!utzoo!utcs!flaps, cbosgd!utcs!flaps ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Do you ever feel as though someone has done a 'nice +15' command on your entire life?" -- depressed unix hacker