rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (12/24/85)
In article <1254@hpda.UUCP> on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) writes: > I will refer you to two >excelent books that you will find enlightening and empowering.. > > "Witchcraft and the Gay counterculture" by A Evans I recommend that you read this book with a GRAM of salt. Evans has an ax to grind and he rewrites of lot of history to fit his thesis. Although I read the book several years ago, one example still comes to mind: He writes that Christianity was first taken up by the ruling class of Romans and foisted upon the Roman peasantry. He uses a lot of footnotes, but hardly ever to document his claims.
on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) (12/26/85)
>>(Owen Rowley) I will refer you to two >>excelent books that you will find enlightening and empowering.. >> >> "Witchcraft and the Gay counterculture" by A Evans $5.50 from Fag Rag Books Box 3331 Kenmore Station, Boston, Mass. 02215 Lets not forget "Another Mother Tongue" by Judy Grahn >(Rob Bernardo) >I recommend that you read this book with a GRAM of salt. Evans has an >ax to grind and he rewrites of lot of history to fit his thesis. Although >I read the book several years ago, one example still comes to mind: He >writes that Christianity was first taken up by the ruling class of Romans >and foisted upon the Roman peasantry. He uses a lot of footnotes, but hardly >ever to document his claims. Evans is very clear in his introduction that he has taken some libertys "This book is an attempt to record some of the things that *Professional* Historians usuually leave out. It is subjective It is arbitrary in that it picks and chooses among all the source material, accepting things here and there, but rejecting most as biased or unreliable." "This book, however is as true as any other historical work. It is true because ALL historical works are one sided, subjective, and arbitrary. Every historian works this way. The real Falsehood occurs when historians hide their values, emotions, and choices under a veneer of `objectivity'. A work of history cannot be assessed apart from the values of the person who wrote it." There are six pages of Bibliography, (apx 200+ entries), contrary to Robs citation I found his footnotes distracting in that the dcumentation was often overwhelming. And I had already read a lot of the books he was referencing. Evans point is that Gay history, like all history has been chopped up by people with "an Ax to grind" By the way whats so unbelievable about the Roman Ruling class foisting Xtianity on the peasantry? Evans spends pages on this particular subject give three direct quotes and over twenty bibliographical sources for his thesis. Perhpas you unaware of some of the basics of this point.. things like the words Pagan and Heathen mean people who live in the country (paganus) and people who live on the heath . That Xtianity did indeed take hold in the citys and among the ruling class first and that the peasantry have held on to their "Old Religions" beliefs so strongly that many of them still survive today . That The Xtian fextival calendar and roster of Saints is filled with "Pagan" deitys and their festivals, That The church in Rome is the remnant of the "Holy Roman Empire" etc etc etc.. Rob I know from some of your previous postings that you are a practising christian, and most of you should know by now that I am a practising Pagan. Therefore we know that there is a fundamental difference in the way we see the world life and everything. My recommendation of the previously mentioned book was intended to present to motss an opinion (my opinion) about these books. I find your need to warn others of apparent flaws in these books to be typical of the attitude that pervades most christian thinking... Self righteous and hypocritical. (Like the bible is really accurate history and doesn't have an Ax to grind... right) I think that you are showing that you have no respect for the inteligence of net.motss readers , do you really think that if you dont warn them of Evans' "heresy that they will be drawn into a life threatening slide to intelectual perdition? Listen up folks... I have said it before ... I'll say it again... We are currently experiencing the dawn of a "NEW INQUISITION" Read any version of history you want about the last few (inquisitions) but be aware (beware) Faggots , Women and other heretics (non-conforming citizens) are always the first to fuel the fires. Attempting to appear as conforming citizens has never done anything to encourage the inquisitors to abate, on the contrary they merely step up the level of torture. During the witch Hunts, A book by the tittle "mallefius Malleficorum" was the handbook for discovering and dealing with "Witchcraft and other heresies" (Sodomy amongst them) This book was officially sanctioned by the church If you really want to know the truth about what happened.. Then read the actual historical document... don't beleive me .. or any one else read it yourself. (It IS curently in print by Dover books, and its available in many major llibraries) and prepare to be sickened by it. If there is interest I would be happy to post some selections! LUX .. on Owen Rowley hplabs!hpda!on
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (12/27/85)
I agree with Rob: on prehistory, witchcraft and the middle ages Evans is just as reckless. I've read a portion of the book excerpted in a magazine: Evans has taken some very interesting ideas and facts with possible connections and made a miserable hash out of them. He's been severely criticized in the press for his opinions about the history of witchcraft, for example. The book is a mess, which is a shame considering what it could have been. Regards, Ron Rizzo
rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (12/28/85)
In article <1259@hpda.UUCP> on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) writes: >>>(Owen Rowley) I will refer you to two >>>excelent books that you will find enlightening and empowering.. >>> >>> "Witchcraft and the Gay counterculture" by A Evans > >>(Rob Bernardo) >>I recommend that you read this book with a GRAM of salt. Evans has an >>ax to grind and he rewrites of lot of history to fit his thesis. Although >>I read the book several years ago, one example still comes to mind: He >>writes that Christianity was first taken up by the ruling class of Romans >>and foisted upon the Roman peasantry. He uses a lot of footnotes, but hardly >>ever to document his claims. > >(Owen Rowley) >Rob I know from some of your previous postings that you are a practising >christian, and most of you should know by now that I am a practising Pagan. >Therefore we know that there is a fundamental difference in the way we >see the world life and everything. My recommendation of the previously >mentioned book was intended to present to motss an opinion (my opinion) >about these books. I find your need to warn others of apparent flaws in >these books to be typical of the attitude that pervades most christian >thinking... Self righteous and hypocritical. (Like the bible is really >accurate history and doesn't have an Ax to grind... right) >I think that you are showing that you have no respect for >the inteligence of net.motss readers , do you really think that if you dont >warn them of Evans' "heresy that they will be drawn into a life threatening >slide to intelectual perdition? Me? A Christian? That's one hell of an accusation! Where do you ever get such a cacamamy idea! You may have mis-remembered a posting of mine that followed up some Bible quotes posted in this group. In any case, don't you think you are having a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that I "unrecommended" the book? I didn't say "Don't read the book. It is all lies and dangerous to your well-being." If you can recommend a book that you like, what's wrong with me criticizing it? Question the Bible, and question Arthur Evans, too!
on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) (12/30/85)
In article <1652@bbncca.ARPA> rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) writes: >I agree with Rob: on prehistory, witchcraft and the middle ages Evans >is just as reckless. I've read a portion of the book excerpted in a >magazine: Evans has taken some very interesting ideas and facts with >possible connections and made a miserable hash out of them. He's >been severely criticized in the press for his opinions about the >history of witchcraft, for example. The book is a mess, which is a >shame considering what it could have been. > > > Regards, > Ron Rizzo I really don't want to spend ALL of my time defending this book or my reccomendation of it... and I thought three times before making this reply .....but I just cannot let my thoughts on Ron's comments go by unsaid. Ron, you say that you have read a portion of the book excerpted in a magazine and from this you say that the "book" is a mess, considering what it could have been. I am a bit confused ... have you read the"BOOK" or haven't you? You also say that in regards prehistory, witchcraft, and the middle ages Evans is reckless, and that he's been severely criticised in the press for his opinions about the history of witchcraft. What press? , Gay press?, Pagan press? christian press?.. How knowledgable are you about the History of Witchcraft?. And if you think that you are knowledgable about the middle Ages, how many proffesors do you know that can teach about Witchcraft and the middle ages without being prejudiced by the pervasive Xtianity of the period. Would you put your faith in Third Reich historians as regards the history of Jews during the second world War? Why should generation after generation beleive anything about witchcraft that came out of the secular history of the Medievil church. I may not have a Phd in history but I did hold the position of curator and "Resident expert" for The Museums of Witchcraft and Magic that operated in SF and Gatlinburg Tenn. I am a member of a Family tradition of Witchcraft and know thousands of other witches from many different traditions. I am thoroughly familiar with the available literature on the subject of Witchcraft and British Folklore possessing a library of these works that I can modestly call extensive. I am not prepared to say that I agree with every word of Evans book but I stand behind my reccomendation that it provides an interesting view of the history of Homosexuality and other persecuted minoritys. You are entitled to your opinion and you are welcome to comment on anything that is presented in this response , please don't mistake my comments for anything other than frustration at what i see as religious intolerance. Granted that any recommedation for ANYTHING can expect that someone somewhere will think and present the opposite viewpoint.. Thats not my contention. It just seems to me that in our pervasivly heterosexual, Xtian society if you want to present a point that does not fit in with the accepted "norm" then its an uphill battle all the way just to be heard. It also seems to me that gay people have been the target of unfair and unreasonable persecution and that gay people might be more receptive to ideas outside those accepted by the society that refuses to accept gay people itself! Just to be fair . about he book recomendation.. I could critisize it myself, saying that I think its pretty dry reading and often a little too condensed to be cohesive in its presentation of the material.. Judy Grahns "Another Mother tongue" presents the same material in a much more readable style. (Now that its in Paperback it has reached "Best seller" status in the Gay Bookstores of SF by the way) So who care anyway right!... I guess I do or I wouldn't put so much energy into it.. You know this new electronic medium we use here has a tendency to make things sound harsher than they might be.. I mean no disrespect for either of you (Rob or Ron) on a personal level, please don't interpret my words as such! LUX .. on Owen Rowley hplabs!hpda!on "Everybody understands Mickey Mouse. Few understand Herman Hesse. Only a handfull understand Einstein. And Nobody understood Emperor Norton. Hail Eris!!!!!!!!!!
on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) (12/30/85)
>(Rob Bernardo) >Me? A Christian? That's one hell of an accusation! >Where do you ever get such a cacamamy idea! You may have mis-remembered a >posting of mine that followed up some Bible quotes posted in this group. I thought that I had remembered that you had posted several evangelising articles both here and in net.religion... I humbly apologise, for my error. > >In any case, don't you think you are having a knee-jerk reaction to the fact >that I "unrecommended" the book? I didn't say "Don't read the book. It is all >lies and dangerous to your well-being." If you can recommend a book that you >like, what's wrong with me criticizing it? > >Question the Bible, and question Arthur Evans, too! Yeah I do have a knee jerk reaction when it comes to the subject of xtianity<=>paganism. And I guess I got hot under the collar about it.. I get bent out of shape when Pagan history is laundered by "The Official Line " Whether we are christians ourselves or not is a moot point.. The Fact is that during the middle ages the churches had a strangle hold on our Culture due to the campaign of terror that they waged against ANYONE who did not play the game their way! The myths and stories that made up the spiritual heritage of the British Isles (I use this example cuz its one I know well, intellectually and genetically) were bastardised and butchered to to fit the purposes of the "New Religion". The Clergy had been weakened by the Romans and were done away with totally by the church. This is a pattern that has been repeated over and over in every corner of this planet. Why are Gay people afraid to learn that prior to the Yahweh cults ascendancy there were cultures where homosexuality and bisexuality were accepted and often given special status? Perhaps it would mean that we would have to *really* shed our self images of guilt and shame and be Gay (happy) about who and what we are. Well in any case I have questioned Evans Too (see my reply to Ron Rizzo) And of course you have the right to voice your opinion, these Bboards have a tendency to sound more Flamey than they are.. at least for me anyway.. So please accept my apology for being uptight as well.. I did and do disagree with your statements but I've already said enough on this.. LUX .. on Owen Rowley hplabs!hpda!on