levasseur@euclid.DEC (Ray EMD & S Admin 223-5027) (01/17/86)
A couple of comments regarding this new ongoing matter/antimatter debate and a coupla other points. >You should KNOW by now that KenWatch is MUCH more entertaining than an >Arndt posting. We bring you only the very BEST of his lines! No >filler! GF MUCH more entertaining! Maybe in your eyes! What you're doing is just- slinging back (no I don't approve of a lot of what Ken says) the pies he's throwing. From what I've observed in the past with others, this is probably just what a Ken Arndt would want. Because you're responding at all shows that it bothers you. Kenwatch is just as silly as Ken, only from the opposite side of the fence. *********************************************************************** KenWatch Members: ( *** = Lifetime Members ) ***Gerry Fisher (Editor in Drag) < It figures, La Cage aux Folles ***Bob Peterson (Assistant Editor, by default) < Bob you should drag Jerry to one of your private plus meetings, unless he's already active, should fit right in with the inner circle! BITTER?.......NAWWWW! but let me mention a couple of things that have been on my mind....yes Bob you can say as you have over lunch, "It must be you Ray, I don't see it!" Those in the inner circle never see it and chose not to. Let me elaborate! I have attended many hetero as well as homosexual social functions and by far the non gay groups made me feel more welcome than did the gay ones. This is not just me talking because I've talked with other misfits in the gay social circle. I've observed hoe others are warmly greeted and then when it comes to the not so attractive or not so obviously gay, they wind up with a dead flounder handshake, a turn of the head and a quick snub. Gays have been known for their politeness as waiters, hairdressers, nurses and other areas of public service, but within our own little world there tends to be a lot of intraminority RUDENESS! I have had 3 heterosexual ex-coworkers in the past who I became fairly close to, they also happened to be black. All 3 had quite a few gay friends and aq- uaintances and commented on intrafaggot behavior as being catty and superficial. They also mentioned that if Blacks as a group acted in the same way then civil rights for Blacks would be 100 years behind where it is due to a serious lack of solidarity. Think about it next time someone comes to your party. Why don't you feel comfortable introducing the newcomer to the others? Are you afraid of what your other friend's judgements will be? After all he one as much one of you as the rest of the guests. Geee! I dunno, before I thought I was some kinda freak since 99% of most gay men I meet greet me with a dead fish handshake and walk away; maybe I don't look, smell, dress, or taste gay. My ex roomate in Chelsea is one of the only existing men I've known who went out of his way to make me and most anyone else feel welcome and fully accepted by his friends. He didn't give a shit about the petty stuff. I also find lesbians to be much more warm and accepting then their male counterparts...gee! maybe I'm a Lesbian trapped in a man's body. Most of you collectively would write me off as some sorta gay Ken Arndt, but I'll bet in the privacy of your own terminal some will agree with my stance since some are in the same boat. How many times have you been treated like some kinda disposable trash, ignored totally, not included, etc? Well.... then don't pass it on to the next guy in the form of rejection......or worse, totally ignoring the person. Ya'll know it exists and is much more rampant on our side of the fence than theirs. I went to that netowk party in Brighton. I can remember Ken saying something to the affect of a silly line about taking a shell shocked friend with him. I left early since s few who were anxious to meet me after weeks/months of corres- ponding acted like they were meeting Howard Cosell when wwe were introduced; not all but most acted this way. It's been the same way with Dignity and other supp- osedly welcoming places which are run by gays. Huh! Dignity, they look at your crotch as you walk in, and maybe say hello if you're deemed "one of us". I find much more warmth and support from the mainstream Christian churches I've attend- ed where members of the congregation knew I was gay. We've been rejected so long some of us subconsciously pass the token on to those in our own (I use this term loosly) community. No, I doubt if I'll go straight since what I am runs much deeper than some addiction like cigarette smoking or alcoholism. I have always tried to be as open, outgoing and friendly as could be but after meeting with a mess of negative flack have given up trying. In my own opinion (for the most part this lifestyle has proven to be petty, superficial and unfulfilling spirit- ually as well as socially). It's only one person's opinion, I don't claim to speak for the great unwashed masses! Ken may throw pies, but I only throw what I've experienced. Ray
cycy@isl1.ri.cmu.edu (Christopher Young) (01/21/86)
While I can understand Ray's cynical viewpoint, and indeed I've noticed the
same behaviour among many gay men myself, I feel that the attitude Ray
presents in his posting is a bit radical and indeed self-destructive.
First, I do think that, as a whole, lesbians are way more together than
gay men. For one thing, lesbians in general are a lot more concerned about
social/political issues whereas gay men seem to be only interested in
themselves. I think one reason is because women themselves have been oppressed
so long whereas men have had it easy for a long time. Lesbians are being
discriminated on two fronts, and they can't hide the fact that they are women.
As far as straight people and acceptance goes, I think it is impossible to
make any generalisation about that at all. I seen everywhere from complete
acceptance to death threats.
Stereotypes can be dangerous, however. Especially negative, bitter ones. There
are many gay people who just don't engage in "gay" social activities. I and
my lover rarely do. In fact, I rarely ever did when I was single. I didn't/don't
need them; I had/have my friends, I make new ones through my friends and by
chance, and that's enough with me. If somebody gives me a "dead flounder"
handshake, is catty and nasty, etc., I note that I probably would not like to
associate with that person and leave it at that. I don't need them and they
don't need me. I don't care. It's not my loss. I don't get bitter.
Having been a member of Dignity, I would like to debate Ray's view of the
organisation. I think perhaps it depends upon where you go to Dignity meetings.
I went to a wonderful church in Sacramento, Calif. It was quite integrated.
There were white, black, hispanic, asian, etc, straight and gay, man and women,
young and old, etc. We worked on issues such as Santcuary and social justice.
Dignity also met there once a month. It was not cruisy. And there were wome
Religious issues were discussed after mass, and I found it quite pleasant.
There was spiritual life there. And it worked *with* the church. We even
had a fund for the school attatched to the church for which we would hold
rummage sales and such. It was great, and it's one of the things I miss most
about Sacramento.
Life is what one makes of it. I have a number of gay and straight friends in
about equal percentages. I ignore those I don't care to be with and enjoy
the company of those I find I get along with. Personally, I think Kenwatch
is kind of stupid, but understandable. If it were more positive (ie., warned
newcomers rather than launching vicious counter-attacks), I think I would
like it better. But I don't think a person should go sour on an entire,
giagantic population of people. It's not very fair. I have friends who I
consider to be physically attractive and not so attractive, but they are all
very handsome inside. I think there are lots of people, gay and straight, who
feel that the inner qualities are the most important. But going around with
such a bitter attitude is bound to turn people off. Thus, potential friends
are alienated before they are ever met.
I don't want to lessen the point about pettiness, because that and gossip do
seem to be overly abundant in "gay" culture. But I encourage people to make
their own culture and their own friends, and to be open to all people.
Sorry this is so long.
-- Chris.