levasseur@euclid.DEC (Ray EMD & S Admin 223-5027) (02/11/86)
Regarding Gerry's posting: Not meant as a flame to you but try to understand how it feels to the person who doesn't fit in any gay social group. >In response to Chris' and Keith's postings about the gay community: I didn't see either posting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >most, what makes you most insecure about your own masculinity, and >what rattles your own conception of what "men" or "gay men" should be. I feel quite comfortable with my level of masculinity or butchness if you want to call it that. My acceptability as a valid person I don't feel comfortable with, especially in the gay community. 99.9% of the time gay males have invalidated my self worth with their gossip and dishy behavior. I started out idealistic about gay males but how would you feel when you continually get feedback about nasty rumors about you, even from supposed friends. Either I'm soooo wonderful (which I highly doubt) that everyone envies the ground I walk on or I'm just the archtypical outsider! >On the one hand, you say "don't generalize." On the other hand, you >complain about gay men's "fish handshakes," and you "point into the >mirror" to warn us about gossipy queens (do you gossip? should you >really have been pointing into a mirror?). It's easy to generalize, especially when all you ever meet are the stereotypes. I've seen these guys treat everyone else like someone special, so what's so different about me that they all shy away. Maybe I give off some kinda vibe that no-one's telling me about! > You admire men who avoid the >gay community even when the association "would clearly be beneficial to the >individual," but then you claim to admire lesbians because they are Why would the association be beneficial? It's obvious that you tend to fit in and be welcome. If a person is avoided, why is it beneficial for him to continue exposing himself to rejection or being treated as invisible. >me nervously; after all, I had said the forbidden "G" word. Time in and >time out, they made it clear that they were (read: "wanted to be") just >a bunch of "guys" playing basketball. During one game, a friend >of mine said, "he's such a lady; there's more Clinique on that I love these folks who scream "Gay and Proud" and never say the word even in a gay social setting. And remember Chap's bumper sticker which reads, "Just a buncha guys!" A few years ago I was covertly ostracised for being *too* gay by some gay co-workers because I mentioned vacationing in Provincetown. The person who told the others to have nothing to do with me was as effeminate as you could get. Rather than talk behind his back I confronted him, "listen here X you should talk! Look and listen to yourself Mary!" He thought that no one suspected but it was pretty common knowledge and not an issue, except to him. So I was a threat because I said the word "Provincetown"...no use at all of "G" words, but because P'Town carries gay connotations he thought I was being too free with my speech. By the way P'Town attracts as many straight vacationers as it does gay ones. >I get the feeling that these guys would never watch Dynasty, wear >Clinique products, shop in certain stores, listen to Disco music, or >wear 501 jeans because that is "gay" behavior. In my opinion, if you I don't like Dynasty because it's like all the other mindless pablum that network tv shoves at us, I like Clinique but cannot afford it, like to window shop at Bloomies and Needless Markup but cannot afford the merchandise, listen to disco quite often and 501's are all I own, not because they're gay but because they fit me better than anything else; which is probably why gay men wear them in the first place. >don't like a product, don't use it; if you don't like a product >because you are worried about what other people think, you are >foolish. I agree fully! My mother gets on my case because I have a punktail, "aren't you worried that someone will think you're gay?" The same goes for my diamond ear stud. Big deal! I like the look of a tiny ear stud, I think that a punktail looks nice, screw what anyone else may think! Just as many straight guys are emulating the gay looks so ya can't tell the faggots from the fag bashers. Some straight punk spewed out "Faggot" as he passed me on Newbury Street. I stopped him and said, "who do you think yer callin faggot? Just look at yourself; the dyed punk haircut, three ear rings and all the braclets yer wearing. You look 10 times more queer than me buddy!" He just walked away. Story number 2: >the Boston Ramrod (gay bar) for a drink (a really healthy thing to do, >huh?). When I walked into the bar, I noticed the usual assortment of >folks (yes, the catty, gossipy people included; after all, they are >the most noticeable). Since the Boston Ramrod is basicly a neighborhood bar, I would expect a lot of gossip. It was just as bad at the (now defunct, rest in peace) Di Rocco's. Did you ever go there Gerry? Were you warmly recieved? >did he come-on to me ("you know how promiscuous those leathermen >are"), and as a matter of fact, he expressed his joy that he found No more promiscuous than the disco dollies or the bush bunnies! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >It amazes me the number of people who turn to me to tell me that the >bars are only filled with nasty, gossipy queens. I wonder if those >people are including themselves in that group; after all, I see them For the most part this is what I see, nasty queens. I can't say as I gossip; I'll tell anyone to their face what I will to someone else Gossip usually boomerangs back at the gossiper in some way or another. I choose not to play the game. >stereotypes. If you choose to avoid the gay community, then you are >missing the opportunity to enjoy a wide variety of people. I have tried fitting in with the *gay* community but have at best been ignored. I do not *come on to* or in other ways act like Tyrone F Horn-I, the classic Dirty Old Man from Laugh In. You're lucky in that you've been accepted into a group. We all talk about straight people walking a mile in our shoes, well those gay folks who have wholesome full social lives should take a moment to think about what it feels like to be continuously rejected from within the community. Maybe it's me. I dunno! My roomate can vouch for what happens to me whenever I'm in a gay environment. It puzzles him since for the most part it has never happened to him and he can't understand why these same folks will at best act as if I'm not there, even when engaged in conversation with me. Well, bottom line is that I have decided to *totally* drop out of the community, this being my only outlet. I have tried to enjoy the wide variety of people but feel like the bird watcher who can appreciate the beauty of birds in flight, etc but can never fly himself! Gerry! how would you feel if *all the time* people gave you limp hand- shakes, turned away and ignored you in mid sentence while talking to you, told you how nice a person you were with the hopes of becomming friends only to be ignored or rejected next time you saw the person. I'm not talking about tricks but just folks you've met in social settings. All right you met me at a cookout last Summer in Newton. After some idle chit chat between you returned to your circle. I'm not flaming you but it would be interesting (not on the net but private mail) what your impressions were. Now some folks say I have a threatening presence...rubbish! what is at all threatening about me? Some folks are just forgettable/disposable for wahtever reason escapes me. There have been a few who have said I don't look gay, what is looking gay anyway? I sometimes wonder how many gay men there are who have given up, dropped out of the mainstream because they felt like outsiders. I'll bet quite a few, you'll never seen them since they no longer attend gay bars, churches, social groups, etc. A lot are probably above that ideal gay age window of 20-30 years old. I don't believe that I lack social graces at all since I function quite well in a heterosexual group. About 11 years ago I was in a bad ca accident and was hospitalized for 10 days. Everyone knew what happened and the only people who sent cards, called or visited were heterosexual friends and aquaintances, the *supposed* gay friends made no attempt at contacting me. I later found out that the comment "she'll get over it and we'll see her later" was made. Well! for one, I'm not a her! >The next time you go into a "gay" event, really try to notice the >types of people who surround you. Especially, take time to notice the >quiet ones. Appreciate the variety in our community and add your own >personality to the melting pot. You and your local gay community will >be richer because of it. Don't discredit the notion of community just >because you differ from some gay people. We need to appreciate our >differences as much as those traits we have in common. I have always observed the people around me. They're usually in tight little clusters of friends. I'm not one to barge into a conversation unless invited by someone. This rarely happens so most of the time I wind up alone. I can stay home and be alone a lot easier than among a group of kindred? spirits where I don't fit in. I suppose that most of the Jason garbage I've posted can be taken from the viewpoint of the outsider, commenting on those who's behavior he can take a stab at analyzing. At this point I don't feel that I in any way enrich our community by standing in the shadows, although you might say that just my presence adds to the headcount "safety in Numbers" MOre Jason drivel to come for all it's worth. >What do others think about this issue? Well Gerry, you asked just me talking! Who am I to say, just an observation by someone outside the community. Bitter, maybe! frustrated, yes most definitely Ray