chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqui Q. Koala) (12/23/84)
Usenet administrators: This message is to inform you that your sys file
is probably wrong. While poring through the returns of the sendsys
control message I sent out a few weeks ago, I've found many re-occuring
problems with sys files all over the network. We've been having
trouble with "black holes" in the network where messages simply seem to
disappear without a trace. Most, if not all, of these can be tracked
down to problems in the news sys files of sites upstream of the holes.
The biggest problem I've seen is missing distributions. Every site in the
U.S. should have the following distributions for their site and any site
they feed news to:
ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to::
THEM:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to::
Many sites are missing both the "usa" distribution and the "mod"
distribution, crippling the ability of everyone to use these.
A related problem is with sites that are passing specific topics to
some other place. This example is WRONG and will not properly forward
all messages:
ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to::
THEM:net.unix-wizards::
The reason this is wrong is that 2.10.2 now requires the "Distribution:"
line in headers of messages being posted. If you send out a message with
the headers:
Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards
Distribution: net
your sys file with match the "Newsgroups:" line but it will NOT match
the line for the "Distribution:". Because of this, large numbers of
articles are not being sent when (or where) they should be. The correct
way of handling this in the sys file is:
ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to::
THEM:net,net.unix-wizards::
Please, PLEASE update your sys file! If your sys file is incorrect you are
not seeing all the articles you should be, and neither are any of the sites
you feed news to. This is especially critical if you are feeding news to
others -- you have taken on the responsibility of getting them
information and you may not be. There is nothing they can do to fix this -- the
responsibility is yours. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes to work
on your sys file -- do it! There are areas of the net that are having
significant problems, especially with mod, usa, and na distributions, and
they can be tracked down to some sites that have let their sys files get
out of date. If you have any questions, please contact me at ..!nsc!chuqui
and I'll help you fix your file. It is VERY important to everyone on the
net that all of the information gets to every person possible. Don't be the
site that keeps that critical piece of knowledge from the person that needs
it -- fix your sys file.
In a few weeks I'll be sending out another sendsys message. I plan on
contacting sites that are still errant personally at that time. Depending
on the problems I see I may also post a list of the errant sites so that
administrators being fed by them will at least know they aren't getting
everything. I don't want your site on that list -- I hope you don't, either.
chuq
--
From behind the bar: Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
Deadbone erotica is the prickly panic of forgotten milleniums, it is the moldy
billion year madness that creeps deep along the spinal behind of my mind.kre@munnari.OZ (Robert Elz) (12/25/84)
In article <2107@nsc.UUCP> chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqui Q. Koala) writes: | | A related problem is with sites that are passing specific topics to | some other place. This example is WRONG and will not properly forward | all messages: | | ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to:: | THEM:net.unix-wizards:: | | The reason this is wrong is that 2.10.2 now requires the "Distribution:" | line in headers of messages being posted. If you send out a message with | the headers: | | Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards | Distribution: net | | your sys file with match the "Newsgroups:" line but it will NOT match | the line for the "Distribution:". Because of this, large numbers of | articles are not being sent when (or where) they should be. This is only true for 2.10.1 (and earlier?) - the example works fine if you are running 2.10.2. 2.10.2 matches the Distribution against the newsgroups, if the Distribution adds no "new information" as in the postulated case, it is ignored. Unfortunately, it doesn't delete the Distribution line (probably it should, I posted a mod which will do almost that at the posting site - see <609@munnari.OZ> in net.news.b or net.sources.bugs). It also not true that 2.10.2 *requires* Distribution lines, it simply supplies them by default, and doesn't let you leave the Distribution empty while you're in the prompting stage of postnews. However, you can easily delete the Distribution line while you're in the editor, 2.10.2 will respect your wishes, and work fine. Chuq continues... | The correct | way of handling this in the sys file is: | | ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to:: | THEM:net,net.unix-wizards:: This MUST have been a typo, I'm sure Chuq means ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to:: THEM:net,!net.all,net.unix-wizards:: Chuq's version would have you sending everything! | | Please, PLEASE update your sys file! I concur. Please do! An alternative is to install the mod I posted to net.news.b and net.sources.bugs <609@munnari.OZ> which has the effect of updating the 2.10.1 handling of Distribution lines to operate like 2.10.2 does. You will find updating your sys file easier, and quicker, to do, except possibly if you send limited newsgroups to a lot of sites. See my article <616@munnari.OZ> in net.news.b, and the articles it references, for more discussion of this problem. Robert Elz decvax!mulga!kre
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqui Q. Koala) (12/26/84)
There are two problemms that have been found with my article on sys files--
an errata sheet has been posted as article <2112@nsc.UUCP> in net.news.
Please see that article for further comments on what was wrong.
chuq
--
From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA
Deadbone erotica is the prickly panic of forgotten milleniums, it is the moldy
billion year madness that creeps deep along the spinal behind of my mind.holmes@dalcs.UUCP (Ray Holmes) (12/27/84)
> In article <2107@nsc.UUCP> chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqui Q. Koala) writes: > | > | A related problem is with sites that are passing specific topics to > | some other place. This example is WRONG and will not properly forward > | all messages: > | > | ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to:: > | THEM:net.unix-wizards:: > | > | The reason this is wrong is that 2.10.2 now requires the "Distribution:" > | line in headers of messages being posted. If you send out a message with > | the headers: > | > | Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards > | Distribution: net > | > | your sys file with match the "Newsgroups:" line but it will NOT match > | the line for the "Distribution:". Because of this, large numbers of > | articles are not being sent when (or where) they should be. > > This is only true for 2.10.1 (and earlier?) - the example works > fine if you are running 2.10.2. 2.10.2 matches the Distribution > against the newsgroups, if the Distribution adds no "new information" > as in the postulated case, it is ignored. Unfortunately, it > doesn't delete the Distribution line (probably it should, I posted > a mod which will do almost that at the posting site - see > <609@munnari.OZ> in net.news.b or net.sources.bugs). > > It also not true that 2.10.2 *requires* Distribution lines, it > simply supplies them by default, and doesn't let you leave the > Distribution empty while you're in the prompting stage of > postnews. However, you can easily delete the Distribution line > while you're in the editor, 2.10.2 will respect your wishes, and > work fine. > > Chuq continues... > | The correct > | way of handling this in the sys file is: > | > | ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to:: > | THEM:net,net.unix-wizards:: > > This MUST have been a typo, I'm sure Chuq means > > ME:net,fa,mod,usa,na,to:: > THEM:net,!net.all,net.unix-wizards:: > > Chuq's version would have you sending everything! > > | > | Please, PLEASE update your sys file! > > I concur. Please do! An alternative is to install the > mod I posted to net.news.b and net.sources.bugs <609@munnari.OZ> > which has the effect of updating the 2.10.1 handling of > Distribution lines to operate like 2.10.2 does. > You will find updating your sys file easier, and quicker, > to do, except possibly if you send limited newsgroups to > a lot of sites. > > See my article <616@munnari.OZ> in net.news.b, and the > articles it references, for more discussion of this problem. > > Robert Elz decvax!mulga!kre I am realy getting confused here. I have deIu|~bed that the optimal method of setting up "sys" files is to start with what looks right, and if that doesn't work, make a random change. I HATE this, but something must be done, we (are supposed to) get all news (but I know we don't, possibly I missed THE CRITICAL ARTICAL that makes sense out of this) and only random moves seem to help (about 30% of the time (but then we can always back up). Thus, my recomendation is to try all combinations in your "sys" file until one works -- should only take a few years. Ray
kre@munnari.OZ (Robert Elz) (12/29/84)
In article <1401@dalcs.UUCP> holmes@dalcs.UUCP (Ray Holmes) writes: | | I am realy getting confused here.... | | Thus, my recomendation is to try all combinations in your "sys" file until | one works -- should only take a few years. | OK, here are the rules, as I understand them, which might make it easier for a few people out there. (If you have a weak stomach - you probably should read no further - if you are a news system administrator, you're NOT ALLOWED a weak stomach - you better read this!) Beware this is a LONG ARTICLE. First point to note, is that with one exception (noted just below) the news that you get depends on what's in your neighbours sys file, not yours - so if you are missing things, you should talk to your news feed about it. First, the basic sys file format (I apologise to all of you who know all this already, but since I've started this, I think I should include as much info as I reasonably can) There are 4 fields, separated by colons. The first contains a host name, or the word "ME" (without the quotes) which is equivalent to your own host name, the second is the subscription list, the third is transmission flags, and the fourth (last) is the command to be used to transmit news. The 'sys' file can contain comments, lines starting with a '#' are comments, I advise their liberal use - make it easy for yourself to remember what's going on later. The first (non-comment) line in your sys file is normally the one for your own site. This line is the exception mentioned above. You can use it to prevent some newsgroups being received at your host (but since your neighbour is sending them anyway, and someone is paying the phone bill, its usually nicer to ask your neighbour to simply not send the news that you don't want - keep the ability to refuse news for extreme cases). The first field is your site name (the thing that 'uname' or 'gethostname' returns on modern systems, whatever you have configured into news as your hostname otherwise). Alternatively, it can be ME. The second field contains the newsgroups that you will receive. In the simple case, its usually quite safe to use the word "all" here - to indicate that you are willing to receive all newsgroups. The third and fourth fields are not used in this entry. So, the typical first line in a sys file is ME:all:: (not indented - I will show all examples indented in this news item, the indentation is just for clarity). Alteratively, you can specify the generic newsgroups that you will receive. There are a few classes of those that you MUST include if you forward news to other sites (especially sites that have no other news feed) or you are in effect denying them news. What those classes are varies from location to location, but a basic minimum for a site in the USA would be ME:net,mod,fa,usa,na,to:: That includes the basic "net" newsgroups (which includes this item - if you haven't got that one there, you aren't reading this!). Also "mod" the moderated newsgroups - check for this one, MAKE SURE its there (yes, right now, go check it!). "fa" is for news from the ARPANET. "usa", "na" and "to" are basically for distributions (though some people have "to.xxx" newsgroups). If you're unsure about what the local newsgroups are, ask the contact at your news feed - if they don't know, then recurse. (Many areas have additional local newsgroups, eg: in the Bay Area in California, there are "ba" newsgroups, similarly "dc" newsgroups in the Washington/Baltimore area) All the other (non-comment) lines in your sys file provide news feeds to other sites. (Its also possible to arrange for archiving of news (lbgm etc), feeding to programs (automatic map updates), or mail to people who prefer to read news that way, by lines in your sys file. I don't propose to cover any of those usages here). In these lines, the first field contains the name of the site that you will be sending news to. Assuming that you're going to use UUCP, then this should be the name that works for sending to them via UUCP. The second field is the list of newsgroups that you want to send them. Here "all" isn't a good idea, as you would end up sending groups that are intended to be purely local to your site (like "general"). Things are also complicated a little here by differences between the various news versions. The third any fourth fields are used for various effects. The third contains single (capital) letter flags, that either modify the meaning of the fourth field, or perform some special action. I don't propose to detail those any further here. The fourth field is (usually) the command that will be used to forward the news. If you leave that out it will default to the command that you specified in defs.h when you built the news system - usually unchanged from the one distributed in defs.dist which is suitable for sending news via UUCP. With that in mind, I won't discuss it further either. Read the news manual pages (or the source!) In the tutorial role that I intend this news to fill, I will proceed to give some examples, and then analyze them... In all of the following, THEM is the name of the site that you are going to feed news to. THEM:net,mod,fa,na,usa,to.THEM:: This is a fairly standard generic entry for use in the USA (assuming that THEM is also in the US). You will be sending all the major classes of news, and the major distributions. Don't omit any of these, without a VERY good reason. Again, you should determine what local area newsgroups exist, and add those to the list. "to.THEM" is included so that you can send news with this as a Distribution, and have it sent to your neighbour only - this is useful for testing that you have set things up correctly. THEM:net,!net.jokes,mod,fa,na,usa,to.THEM:: This is similar to the above, except that (presumably after a request from your neighbour) you are not going to send net.jokes (or any subgroups it may have now, or ever after). This is the right way to send all but a few groups to THEM (even though it doesn't quite work always in 2.10.1 - see below). Note: THEM:!net.jokes,net,mod,fa,na,usa,to.THEM:: is not equivalent - in fact, this is the same as the first example above. The list of newsgroups in the subscription list is scanned left to right - later entries take precedence over earlier ones, so in this case, net.jokes would still be sent. The general rule is, put generic things towards the left, and specific things towards the right. The more specific they get, the further right you should move them. THEM:net.unix-wizards:: This is an example of an attempt to send only one group to THEM. This is an incorrect example, and its what started this discussion [see below though before flaming]. Why its incorrect motivates a discussion of the role of 'Distribution' lines. Here's where things start getting complex. If you're running 2.10.1 (or earlier systems - I'm not sure how much earlier things can get before the rules change again), and some news appears (from your news feed, or created locally) that contains a Distribution line, then that Distribution line replaces the Newsgroups line when you decide where the news should be sent. (That is, Distribution specifies where the article will go, whereas Newsgroups specifies which groups it will appear in when people read it). So, with the above sys file line, if an article appears with a header like Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards Distribution: net You won't send it to THEM, because you don't send "net", only "net.unix-wizards". This has suddenly become important, because 2.10.2 has a slightly different view of what Distribution means, and likes to generate headers just like that whenever someone posts anything to net.unix-wizards with the intention that it be read everywhere. A fix, that semi-works, is to do what was suggested in the newsitem that this is a multi-level followup to. That is change your sys file to THEM:net,!net.all,net.unix-wizards:: This means that you will send "net", but nothing in subgroups of net, except for net.unix-wizards. For articles that don't have Distribution lines, this changes nothing. For articles that do have distribution lines, the "net" in the distribution will match "net", "!net.all" won't exclude it (there's no subgroup on the distribution), and the article will be sent. Its worth saying here, that "net" 'matches' "net" itself, and "net.xxx" where "xxx" can be anything at all. "net.all" matches only "net.xxx" (for all xxx's) but misses "net" itself. But here's the side effect - since in 2.10.1 the Distribution line (if it exists) is the sole control of where news will be sent, you will end up sending *any* article with a distribution line of "net", regardless of which newsgroup its in. That is probably better than not sending some articles, but isn't what was really intended either. Now, if you're running 2.10.2 things are a little different. 2.10.2 uses "Distribution" to *limit* where an article will be sent, rather than to *specify* where it will be sent. So, the above "side-effect" doesn't occur, THEM will only get net.unix-wizards articles. But there's more - with 2.10.2, the Distribution line is not used at all if it is (in essence) a prefix of any of the groups in the Newsgroups line. So, in the above news header, the "Distribution" line at a 2.10.2 site is ignored. That means that above, where I said that the example was incorrect, I was misleading you ... it would work if you are running 2.10.2 Now, of course, 2.10.2 isn't prefect in this area either. If the article header was Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards,ba.unix Distribution: ba then you would expect the "ba" distribution to apply, and so not send the article to THEM. But, "ba" is a prefix of "ba.unix" (ba.unix matches ba in news matching syntax), so 2.10.2 simply ignores the distribution line, and so sends the article to THEM for you. Well, you can't have everything... [Aside: a fix for 2.10.2 was posted just a couple of days ago that will solve this problem - I hope it will be solved in 2.10.3 The fix was in <701@rocksvax.UUCP> in net.news and net.sources.bugs. It causes the rule about "prefix of the Newsgroups" to go away, and instead, sends the article if the group matches, and either the distribution matches the subscription, or the subscription matches the distribution (a subscription of net.unix-wizards would match a distribution of net) I haven't tried the fix, but it looks fairly good to me]. Round about now, things seem to be looking pretty bleak. There is simply no way to get your sys file right! However, don't lose heart, the vast majority or sites never need to worry about any of this - just use the first example I gave, and all will be fine. But remember to watch for the formation of new top-level groups (net wide, or local to your area) and add them as they appear - that isn't very often! If you really do need to limit what you send to other sites, then my advice is to run 2.10.2. The problem there occurs much less often than the problems with 2.10.1, and does much less harm. (You send out a very few extra articles to your neighbour, if he's running 2.10.2 his news system will delete the superflous group from the header, then the Distribution line will no longer be ignored, and as he shouldn't be sending that (to him) unknown Distribution to his neighbours, the article will go no further. If he's running 2.10.1 then the Distribution will simply be something he sends nowhere, and again, the article will halt). When 2.10.3 appears, everyone should upgrade to it [some hope]. If you must stick with 2.10.1 (or earlier), then you should add the "net,!net.all" magic string to all sys file lines that contain limited subscription lists. Some extra articles will end up being sent, but at least you won't be denying your neighbour articles that he thinks you are sending him. I hope that there's someone out there that this might help, at the very least by explaining some of the weird behaviour that's been occurring in the past few months. It might also provide an opportunity for discussion on exactly what Distribution should do. I feel that the 2.10.2 interpretation is the right one, or at least the more useful one (the 2.10.1 variety allowed you to send articles to sites that didn't really want them). Robert Elz decvax!mulga!kre ps: all of the above applies to B news 2.10 (and varieties thereof only). I take no responsibility for how any of it might relate to A news, 2.8, 2.9, or UNSW news.