bp@nyit.UUCP (Bruce Perens) (12/26/85)
Copyright 1985 - The CompuServe OS9 Sig. Reprinted by permission. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- USENET poster's note: This is a transcript of an on-line conference with the President and the marketing VP of Microware, held in Compuserve's OS-9 Forum on-line bulletin board. I have made cosmetic edits to the point that this article should be considered excerpting, and not a copy of the original text. If we're lucky, there won't be duplicate postings of this article. You can find the original text in Compuserve's OS-9 SIG Data Library 0, file MWARE.TXT . A list of the parties to the conference and their Compuserve User-IDs appears at the end of this message. Bruce Perens decvax!philabs!nyit!bp nyit!bp%suny-sb.CSnet@CSnet-Relay.ARPA 516-686-7644 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The following is an edited transcript of the OS9 Sig's 14 December, 1985 conference with Microware, the inventors of OS9. Speaking for "Microware" is Ken Kaplan, President, and Andy Ball, Vice President of Marketing. Lines without a (name) are my own comments. Van OS-9 SIG SysOp 76703,467 ---------------------------------------------------- Our guests, are Ken Kaplan, President of Microware, the inventors of OS9, and his VP of Marketing, Andy Ball. Let's start by letting Ken and Andy say anything (legal he he) that they wish. Ken or Andy? (Microware) Hi everyone! Well, that was certainly illuminating! (he he) Ken, to stave off a few questions from people not familiar with OS9, would you care to give us a brief history of OS9, and a brief outline of just what the heck OS9 is? (Microware) In 10,000 words or less (he he)? Well, I know many will ask those questions, so it may save time. How about 50 words? (Microware) OK. OS-9 was originally written in 1979 for Motorola, for the 6809 MPU. In 1980 we started on a 68K version. OS-9 has has become widely used in a great variety of applications, because it's small, fast, real time, multitasking, ROMable, etc. (BOB M.) OK. We hear a lot about OS-9 Level 2, and I wondered just what is the difference between Level 1 and 2? I know Level 2 with the right hardware can access a lot of RAM, but is this a legal command under OS-9 Level 2... OS9:EDIT /D0/MYFILE #120K ??? (Microware) Each process is limited to 64K - but you can have more memory modules pre-loaded in RAM which can be quickly linked and unlinked. 64K - can-t get around a 16 bit PC register in software (George B.) Ken, OS-9 and OS-9/68000 is the greatest thing since sliced bread but the langauge compilers are so bloody expensive that us "hackers" can't afford to get them. Is there any chance of some kind of price break for "personal" use compilers? (Microware) That's a problem because most of our 68K customers are industrial and the lo-cost personal computers aren't out yet but I think when they are available they'll be affordable, including langauges. (George B.) Well, I sorta consider my UniQuad "low priced", relatively speaking. (Dave Y.) Will the Atari ST version reflect Trameil's philosophy of "Power Without The Price", (meaning low cost), and when will it be available? (Microware) Afraid I don't know the exact $$$ and date yet, partly because another company is developing this version. But I think there will be an official announcement in January. (Dave Y.) Thanks. There's about 50K ST users now, 100K by the end of the year (estimated). That's a potentially high market if the projected sales match actual. I'll add to that, Dave: Price will be between $100 and $500, available between March and May. "C" and at LEAST 1 other language will be included. Sorry if that's not specific enough, but it's early in the game! (Martin Torres) Thanks, Will the Towers in Ft. Worth continue to support us, with other manufacturers on line too and if so, will there be cross machine compatibility? (Microware) Please understand that I can't speak for them or they haven't announced yet. But personally speaking, I think that the number of OS-9 software packages they've released is an indication of very stong support. And I think they'd be crazy to abandon all those loyal CoCo owners out there. as for "cross machine compatibility", I've already taken binaries from a Gimix under Level II, and downloaded.. them to a CoCo. Work perfectly! And for another example You'll be able to take a binary from say, an IBM PC, download it to an ST or Amiga, and execute it immediately. That help? (Martin Torres) Sorry, as a user of the other OS, (the slow one that begins with "M") a future with OS9/OS9-68K would sure be better, Thanks Again. (Microware) Thanks, Martin. I think you'll be pleasantly suprised. (Chas A) Ken, Can you tell us any thing about Tandy's rumored level II machine? (Microware) Sorry. Can't confirm or deny. I think you can imagine why. (Chas A) Ok how about telling us the differences between OS9 level 2 and OS9/68000. (Microware) 1. 16 MB max memory per task/system vs. 2MB/64K (16MB is 68000, 2MB is Level II). 2. More advanced shell and utilities, 3. More real-time functions. 4. Many other improvements throughout. (#'s 2, 3, 4 describe OS9/68000) (Microware) OS-9/68K is essential a superset of OS-9/6809. (Chas A) Kind of makes you wonder why one should wait.. for a level II machine from tandy when others are comming out with 68000 machies? Thank you, Chas. That's a decision only you can make. We don't care WHAT computer you buy, as long as it runs OS9! (Microware) There will always be a better mousetrap, but all tend to catch mice. (chas s.) I'm curious about the OS9 user base. Is OS9 more popular in japan than in the USA? (Microware) In terms of visibilty (books, articles, etc) it is more so in Japan but in absoulte number the US is bigger. (chas s.) What is the percentage of industrial users in the USA vs. personal users? (Microware) About 1/4 personal and 3/4 industrial, in Japan it's about 50-50. (Jeff S.) Ken, with optical disk technology on the horizon are there any capacity limitations of os9/68K? And what are the plans (if any) for virtual memory implementations? (Microware) jeff- (1) No limitations. (2) A 68K VM version was planned eventually, however The rapid drop in DRAM cost may change that, why use a slow imitation (disk VM) of the real thing (RAM) if the cost is about the same? (Jeff S.) Well, we can debate the pro's of VM vs real ram later Concerning the compatibility of os9/68K between graphics oriented machines like the IBM PC w/68K , ST, AMiga, etc.. is there going to be a STANDARD graphics driver package for os9/68k? (Microware) Yes. We are offering the ISO/ANSI standard Virtual Device Interface (VDI) as well as a soon-to-be-announced intermediate level driver standard. (Jeff S.) I take it that they're not available with v 1.2 ? Is there possibility of getting machine readable documentation for os9/68K since it seems to be rapidly being enhanced? (Microware) Our graphics software will work with 1.2 but they'll primarily be shipped w/hardware because the code is partly hardware dependent Our doc files are in a wierd laser printer macro langauges that would likely be useless to anybody else. (Jeff S.) Ok, thanks..it's just that the manual updates seem to be expensice. (KARL) When will FORTRAN be ready for the CoCo? Or should I say when will the CoCo be ready for FORTRAN? (Microware) Our new fortran is too big for level one such as CoCo. Sorry, but can't speculate on future Tandy products. (KARL) Out of curiosity, how much memory will it take to use the new Hitachi graphics chip? (Microware) It has private VRAM - size varies accourding to the # colors, max virtual screen size, etc. I think 128K is a minimum for nice effects. (craig w) Are Commodore and Atari activily supporting the porting of os9/68 to their machines? (Microware) No. (They don't have the money, time, or programmers to do it!) (craig w) Who is doing this porting? Sorry, Craig, we can't tell right now for licensing protection reasons! As soon as Ken mails the signed license, we'll let you all know! (craig w) Who is writing software to run on os9/68k, anybody of national renown like borland? (Microware) Bear with me for a few seconds while I make a few general comments I hope that our answers don't sound like a political press conference (vauge, etc.), but unfortunately many of the folks we're working with get very upset (or worse, go away) if we leak info about their future plans and products. But I can say that there are several VERY BIG THINGS in the works. This is true frustration for you and me, but I can very strongly reassure you that OS-9 will probably be a big part of the the next generation of personal computer systems and your support and good taste in software will be richly rewarded. Excellent way of putting it Ken, thanks. Many people are concerned about "vaporware" and want hard facts, names, etc. Perhaps you could list a few of the major software developers, like FHL, etc? (Microware) We have a "OS-9 Software Vendor Catalog that's free if you call us. Call - 515-224-1929. (Sorry, Ken! he he) (Greg L) Are there any "powerful" shells being developed for for the CoCo or others say like UNIX's C Shell? (Microware) I'm pretty sure there's at least one, but I forgot the name of the author. Call Andy at our office next week and he'll try to find out for you (515-224-1929) (Greg L) On the other side, what other languages are being developed and specifically, are any going to support virtual memory interpreters such as PASCAL, and is there room for the possiblilty of a C interpreter? (Microware) Our 6809 pascal is now VM. 68K is not because there is not 64K memory limit. Fortran for 6809 has been announced, 68K version in a few months C tools such as interpreters and HL debuggers are a very high priority, but not close enough to give dates yet. (George B.) Ken, I have a *small* complaint & a suggestion for OS9/68000 SCF device drivers: You all chose to use the ESCAPE character to indicate EOF, which means us folks who have Fancy Terminals that have character escape sequence cannot use these features except in programs we write. What I'd like to see is an enhanced version of the SCF manager/drivers that would allow escape sequences. (Microware) You can change it with xmode to anthing else, but unfortunately a single character only. I hope the next release will improve this. (George B.) Ken, I would be willing to write an enhanced SCF terminal driver and would cheerfully donate it to the OS-9 Users' Group but I really would not want to develop one from scratch If I could get a source listing for a SCF 6850 drive (hint, hint). or perhaps I'd better contact Hazelwood. (Microware) Hazelwood owns the Uniquad driver. But there's a bigger problem in that device and part descriptors would have to be extended, and we think that as long as we're at it we might as well define and support full screen control. And that's a much more ambitious job. (George B.) Well while I'm on a compaint roll, could you consider including DTR & CD control functions in future device support, i.e. if the modem drops carrier KILL the process to provide login security, etc. (EOF) (Microware) That is supported now. (via setstat). I don't know if the Hazelwood driver handles it properly (V1.2) (George B.) If they did, they didn't tell us about it! Thanks! (Mark G.) Will BASIC09 in the Amiga, ST, PC support 6809 I-Code and are you considering developing a final compiler to eleminate runb? (Microware) The 6809/68K I-code formats are slightly different bacause the 68K version uses bigger numbers and addresses. The ARE source compatible. We're not presently working on a native code compiler but I'd like to have one eventually. (Mark G.) One more question - how can you read the Shell parameter area from BASIC09 without using ("param")? (Microware) I don't think you can directly, sorry. (HENRI V.) Will the ST GEM interface with OS-9, and if not, how will it look to the user? (Microware) Because another company is actually porting OS-9 to the ST. (We'll have an on-line conference with the ST and Amiga porting company as soon as we can!) (Microware) but my guess is that a better alternative will be offered. (HENRI V.) Any hints? The exact interface and method of booting is being tested right now, but we'll have an on-line conference with the company so you can all submit your ideas! (HENRI V.) Ah! Ok I'll wait for the conference on the Atari. Thanks. (Jeff S.) Ken, Can we expect that someone from MicroWare will be checking in to this SIG every now and then to answer questions reqularly? (Microware) We will try to get on as often as possible. At least 2-3 times per month, but we travel a lot so sometimes it's hard. (Jeff S.) Now that the BIG THINGS are going to happen with OS9 can you supply a recommendation as to which machines, to steer towards or away from? Steer towards any machine that runs OS9, as close to standard as possible! Nuff said on that one! (Microware) Dc-3s, Model Ts, MS-DOS, all classics. (he) (Greg L) Awright. I realize that you can't speak a whole lot for Tandy BUT I just recently added a 20 meg hard disk to my CoCo and would like to know if any work is being done on a powerful hard disk backup and also whether the physical size could be increased from the present 15 meg or so without using multiple sector clusters or 2 descriptors to seperate it into managable sizes. (Microware) Anything that backs up HD to FD is by definition NOT powerful. (Greg L) My definition of powerful is anything that can handle multiple floppies, anything other that dsave. (Microware) so pray for cheap tape streamers - these things are on the "wish list". (Greg L) One more, can you !!KICK!! Tandy in the rear and force them to use the proper disk drivers without the hard coded disk sizes, sides, etc. (Microware) I will try. (George B.) how much is the manual upgrade for OS9/68000 & Basic09? (Microware) Embarassing, ahem. They don't let me mess with money. I really don't know off hand and Andy just left. I'll have to get back to you. (Frank Hogg) $50 OS, $25 Basic09 (Microware) I think its about $25. (Frank Hogg) What is the status on 68020 version of 'C' and OS? (Microware) All in-house: OSK is running, ASM/DEBUG done, C in the works. (TomF) I am working on Unix at school, am going to attempt to write a device driver for a Unix function. Can I use OS9 to work on the stuff at home? Are OS9 device drivers similar enough to UNIX? What are the important differences? (Microware) Tom, no. Drivers are much different, sorry. If it helps, I've ported Unix "C" to OS9 with little or no changes, but drivers are a different story! (KARL) I have a 1600 BPI tape drive. Are there any device drivers available, or will there be (for any level)? (Microware) Alloy Corp (formerly?) sold a Cipher drive, controller and 6809 driver, We own one and it works. I know at lease 1 VME vendor will offer a controller with genuine Microware-written drivers (we made a trade!) OK! That wraps it up! I would like to thank all those who attended this conference, especially Ken Kaplan, Pres. of Microware, and Andy Ball, VP of Marketing. I hope this conference has been beneficial to you all, and will further OS9 (and sales of OS9, Ken). THANK YOU and Goodnight! (Microware) Good night, happy holidays, and thanks everyone! Users logged in to this on-line conference: `Handle' Compuserve User ID Barry B. 72235,1530 Bob M. 71615,531 Chas A. 71446,1030 Chas S. 75716,42 Craig W. 72125,466 Dave Y. 72167,1120 Frank Hogg 70310,317 George B. 70040,104 Greg 72746,3451 Greg L. 73016,1251 Henri V. 70210,221 Jack L. 70725,1505 Jack L. 71436,344 Jeff S. 74736,243 John S. 70010,575 Karl 72267,1342 Mark G. 72057,2642 Martin Torres 72477,1136 Martin Young 72436,1734 Microware 73105,1265 Nick Costanzo 72757,2401 Pete J. 70405,471 SysOp/Van 76703,467 Tom F. 70107,1220 Permission to reprint or excerpt is granted only if the following line appears at the top of the article: Copyright 1985 - The CompuServe OS9 Sig. Reprinted by permission.