emh@bonnie.UUCP (Edward M. Hummel) (11/28/84)
<>
Here's a Constitution question that I have sometimes wondered
about:
Ronald Reagan has won the election. What happens if he
dies before being sworn in (Jan 85)?
If he dies before the electoral college votes, what would
they do?
Ed Hummel
{ihnp4,cmcl2,burl,allegra,...}!clyde!bonnie!emhndiamond@watdaisy.UUCP (Norman Diamond) (11/29/84)
Technically, the electors can vote for anyone they wish. There was even a recent occasion (1968 I think) when an elector voted differently from the way he had pledged, and his actual vote counted (but didn't affect the results). Electors are supposed to vote the way the voters did in their states, and sometimes a state has two sets of potential electors so that they can choose the appropriate set after seeing how their voters have chosen. And you though software was kludgy. And how many states are prepared with four (or whatever) sets of electors? If software engineers designed programs with as little preparation for unusual cases as governments do in their laws, the first typo by a data entry clerk would crash usenet.
hosking@convexs.UUCP (12/01/84)
They would most likely bury him. <:-{)geb@cadre.UUCP (12/01/84)
The electors are not bound to vote for any specific candidate, despite the fact that they ran as "Reagan" electors. Indeed, mavericks in the past have voted for someone else. In 1972 Roger MacBride, a Nixon elector from Virginia, cast his vote for John Hospers for President, and Toni Nathan for Vice President, making Nathan the first woman ever to receive an electoral vote. (Hospers and Nathan were Libertarian Party nominees.) Since Mondale has only a tiny minority of electors, it would well be possible for the Reagan electors to caucus and decide to elect someone other than Bush (and well they might, since Bush is "too liberal" for a lot of them). If they could be sure of a majority, it would be possible for them to elect anyone they wished, but if they deadlocked, the Democratic House of Representatives would elect the president. They would probably play it safe and elect Bush, otherwise, there would probably be an amendment to the constitution to get rid of the electoral college before the next election.
gino@voder.UUCP (Gino Bloch) (12/05/84)
[since I don't believe in the bug, I didn't provide this line]
> They would most likely bury him. <:-{)
They might cremate him, so send all replies to net.flame :-) (-:
--
Gene E. Bloch (...!nsc!voder!gino)
Mr Humilityajaym@ihu1h.UUCP (Jay Mitchell) (12/05/84)
Actually, the time is actually divided up into even further increments as follows: 1) If the president-elect dies between now and the mid-December Electoral College convention, national party rules would still hold. In effect, the College members would be able to vote for who their party wants them to vote for. Actually of course, they could potentially meet and vote for whomever they wanted. 2) If the president-elect dies between the College meeting and the time Congress counts the votes, Congress would still be forced to count the votes and declsre the dead man the winner (No Joke). At that time, the following case would hold. 3) If the president-elect dies between the counting of the votes and Inauguration Day, the vice-president-elect would become president-elect and would have the opportunity to nominate hice vice-president-elect. This nomination would have to be approved for Congress. 4) AND FINALLY, if both president- and vice-president-elect are dead by Inauguration Day, the order of succession (Secy. of State, etc.) hold temporarily until Congress chooses a president. -- ------------------------- Jay Mitchell ihnp4!ihu1h!ajaym -------------------------
notes@isucs1.UUCP (12/12/84)
There was an article concerning this very issue in the December 9
Des Moines Register by John Hyde. I'll quote parts of it here.
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Suppose Ronald Reagan were
to die today, Dec. 9, 1984. Who would become
president on Jan. 20, 1985?
The answer is: Nobody knows for sure.
Suppose Reagan were to die a month from now,
on Jan. 8, 1985. Who would become president on
Jan. 20?
The answer is: George Bush.
But suppose Reagan were to die sometime
between Dec. 17, 1984, and Jan. 7, 1985. Who
would become president on Jan. 20?
The answer is: Walter Mondale.
...
The actual election of the president takes
place on the first Monday after the second
Wednesday of December (Dec. 17, this year) when
the 538 electors meet in their various states to
cast their ballots.
During the period between Nov. 6 and Dec. 17,
there is no president-elect since the election
hasn't taken place. Therefore, if a candidate
died or withdrew, it would be up to the national
committees of the political parties to name a new
candidate.
If Reagan were to die, the Republican National
Committee probably would name Vice President
George Bush as its presidential candidate, but
the committee would be under no legal or consti-
tutional obligation to do so, nor would the elec-
tors be under any obligation to follow the
party's advice.
...
Between Dec. 17 and Jan 7, however, the elec-
toral ballots remain sealed and uncounted and no
"president-elect" exists. If Reagan were to die
or withdraw during that period, the election
would be thrown into the House of Representa-
tives.
The election in the House would be governed by
the 12th Amendment, which requires that the
president be picked "from the persons having the
highest numbers not exceeding three on the list
of those voted for as president..." Since the
1984 election was a two-man race in which only
Reagan and Mondale won any electoral votes, the
House's only constitutional option would be to
elect Mondale.
...
If the House refused to settle the election,
Speaker of the House Thomas "Tip" O'Neill would
become acting president on Jan. 20. But O'Neill
would have to resign from the House in order to
accept the position. If O'Neill refused to be-
come acting president, the job would fall to Sen-
ate President Pro Tem Strom Thurmond. If Thur-
mond declined, Secretary of State George Schultz
would become acting president.
...
So that seems to be the story. I guess we still have a chance
before January 7. :-)
Roy Rubinstein
csnet: roy@iowa-state
usenet: ...umn-cs!isucs1!roy
"Anything before Wednesday noon is still Monday morning." - RSRran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast) (12/17/84)
>There was an article concerning this very issue in the December 9 >Des Moines Register by John Hyde. I'll quote parts of it here. > > WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Suppose Ronald Reagan were > to die today, Dec. 9, 1984. Who would become > president on Jan. 20, 1985? > > The answer is: Nobody knows for sure. > > Suppose Reagan were to die a month from now, > on Jan. 8, 1985. Who would become president on > Jan. 20? > > The answer is: George Bush. > > But suppose Reagan were to die sometime > between Dec. 17, 1984, and Jan. 7, 1985. Who > would become president on Jan. 20? > > The answer is: Walter Mondale. > . . . > Between Dec. 17 and Jan 7, however, the elec- > toral ballots remain sealed and uncounted and no > "president-elect" exists. If Reagan were to die > or withdraw during that period, the election > would be thrown into the House of Representa- > tives. > The election in the House would be governed by > the 12th Amendment, which requires that the > president be picked "from the persons having the > highest numbers not exceeding three on the list > of those voted for as president..." Since the > 1984 election was a two-man race in which only > Reagan and Mondale won any electoral votes, the > House's only constitutional option would be to > elect Mondale. >So that seems to be the story. I guess we still have a chance >before January 7. :-) > Roy Rubinstein > csnet: roy@iowa-state > usenet: ...umn-cs!isucs1!roy Who the hell is this bozo (John Hyde)? Does he know how to read? Did he try doing some research, like looking at the Constitution? Are all reporters this incompetent (from other observations, yes!)? AMENDMENT XII. "The electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state as themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and all persons voted for as Vice-President, and the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;--The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;--The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President." [It then goes on to discuss the VP, etc.] Therefore, between Dec. 17 and Jan. 7, the ballots just sit there uncounted. So what? When they are counted, they declare Reagan the President-elect. The House only gets into the act when the Electors don't get a *majority*, definitely not the case here. If Reagan were dead, then the 20th amendment would come into play. "If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President." [AMENDMENT XX, Section 3] That is, Bush. -- ". . . and shun the frumious Bandersnatch." Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran) AT&T-Bell Labs
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) (12/20/84)
I'm glad Mr. Neinast cleared that one up. For a while there it looked like there was a possibility of having Mondale for President and Bush for Vise President. Wouldn't that be fun? Answer: No. -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd
87064023@sdcc3.UUCP ({|lit) (12/21/84)
> > 4) AND FINALLY, if both president- and vice-president-elect are dead by > Inauguration Day, the order of succession (Secy. of State, etc.) > hold temporarily until Congress chooses a president. > -- The secretary of state is not in the order of succession for president (nor is he mentioned in the constitution at all). The individual in line for the presidency after the vice president is the Speaker of the House.
geb@cadre.UUCP (12/23/84)
I read another good argument for the electoral college: It limits the scope of the damage from hanky-panky. Sometimes even this mechanism fails. In 1960, Mayor Daley's vote totals from Chicago gave Kennedy the Election. Nixon didn't challenge but it was almost certain that in an honest election he would have won Illinois. If there was no electoral college, cheating would be more likely to swing the entire election rather than just one state's votes.