lydgate@reed.UUCP (Chris Lydgate) (01/06/85)
I feel sad that times are such that people praise a wounder of four as a 'hero'. I too must admit to ignorance about the details of the event, but I understand that the punks just asked him for money; and that their weapons were in their pockets, and not being brandished. If this guy had used mace (nasty but effective stuff) or responded on the level of violence at which he was approached, I think I would have felt sympathy for him. But shooting them all???? Theft shouldn't be punishable by maiming ! This guy over-reacted; O.K., maybe he was angry, lost control for a minute. Sure. That may make him less blameworthy, but it does *not* make him a 'hero'. This is like having your car destroyed for a parking violation. I think this argument also applies to Milo's T-shirt intruders; I'm glad you thought about that one, Milo. Chris Lydgate
ag5@pucc-k (Henry Mensch) (01/08/85)
<<>>
The fact that our vigilante friend shot the bozos is
nasty enough, but why was he *carrying* an *illegal* handgun?
He was (unfortunately) only asking for trouble...
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". . . he wasn't festive but was probably ambidextrous"mr@hou2h.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/08/85)
> >I feel sad that times are such that people praise a >wounder of four as a 'hero'. I too must admit to >ignorance about the details of the event, but I understand >that the punks just asked him for money; and that their >weapons were in their pockets, and not being brandished. > >If this guy had used mace (nasty but effective stuff) >or responded on the level of violence at which he was >approached, I think I would have felt sympathy for him. >But shooting them all???? Theft shouldn't be punishable >by maiming ! This guy over-reacted; O.K., maybe he >was angry, lost control for a minute. Sure. That >may make him less blameworthy, but it does *not* >make him a 'hero'. > >This is like having your car destroyed for a parking >violation. > >I think this argument also applies to Milo's T-shirt >intruders; I'm glad you thought about that one, Milo. You obviously do not know the nature of the "punks". Mark
gam@amdahl.UUCP (gam) (01/10/85)
> > > >I feel sad that times are such that people praise a > >wounder of four as a 'hero'. I too must admit to > >ignorance about the details of the event, but I understand > >that the punks just asked him for money; and that their > >weapons were in their pockets, and not being brandished. Gee, I'm getting confused. Are the punks the heros (martyrs), then? -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!gam
sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (01/10/85)
> Henry C. Mensch > The fact that our vigilante friend shot the bozos is > nasty enough, but why was he *carrying* an *illegal* handgun? Wrong question. Why is the unconstitutional N.Y. law making carrying handguns illegal still on the books? -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny
geoff@desint.UUCP (Geoff Kuenning) (01/12/85)
In article <912@amdahl.UUCP> gam@amdahl.UUCP (gam) writes: >Gee, I'm getting confused. Are the punks the heros (martyrs), >then? Of course not. The question being raised is whether their crime was great enough to make them deserve a session in the intensive care unit (last I heard one of them is getting worse). This is called "appropriate punishment." Presumably you don't cut your kids' hands off for bad table manners... -- Geoff Kuenning ...!ihnp4!trwrb!desint!geoff
geb@cadre.UUCP (01/16/85)
In article <305@desint.UUCP> geoff@desint.UUCP writes: > The question being raised is whether their crime was great >enough to make them deserve a session in the intensive care unit (last I heard >one of them is getting worse). This is called "appropriate punishment." >Presumably you don't cut your kids' hands off for bad table manners... >-- > I think some people are getting confused. Goetz was not administering justice---he was defending himself. This is what he claims, this is what I think happened. If you try to rob someone, and are killed, this is not part of our system of justice, it is a consequence of your action. Whether or not you would have received such a punishment at the hands of the legal system is totally extraneous to the point. Now if he was out patrolling the subway system and went "to get them" then, this is vigilante justice. Yes, apparently he did shoot 2 in the back, but I still think you have to ask yourself if you would have been calm enough to stop firing when you thought these guys were going to slit your throat. When you get scared, you often can't stop your action until the threat is removed, so the real question revolves around who made the first aggressive move, if it was the punks, then they received the consequences of it.
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (01/18/85)
I make the following prediction: Goetz will be acquitted of any crime with the exception of violating the NY State Handgun Law. This will be appealed to the Supreme Court where he will win. The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms and it seems to me that this is a clear case of NY State interfering with Goetz's Constitutional rights. Interestingly, today's radio news on the way to work included a report of a similar incident in Chicago--a man shot two punks who tried to hold him up with knives. He used a gun concealed in a paper bag. While I feel it is wrong to punish these low-lifes too harshly (i.e., by killing them) it is definitely a good thing to put some fear into their pointy little heads. --J. Abeles
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (01/19/85)
I've been rather concerned at the haste of many to beatify Goetz without knowing what the man actually did. Some interesting facts that are now coming out: (1) Goetz, in his videotaped confession to Concord, NH police, never claimed that the famous screwdrivers (tools for breaking into video game coinboxes) were brandished. Instead, he said the four apporoached him for $5, and the "gleam" in the eye of one of the delinquents led him to believe they were having fun. He concluded that that fun was to beat him senseless. So far, so good. (2) After he produced the gun, the "gleam" turned into a look "fear". Natural enough. (3) As the delinquents attempted flight, Goetz gunned them down (two were shot in the back). He claimed that the reason he stopped shooting was that he ran out of bullets. He admitted he shot one of his harrassers a second time, when the first bullet left him wounded but standing. (4) Some of his bullets of the dum-dum variety, indicating that the infliction of pain was as much on his mind as self-defense. (5) He expressed regret at not having been carrying his car keys at the time, as he would have gouged out the eyes of his victims as they lay on the subway floor. I conclude Goetz was a homicidal maniac, and I'd rather be on a subway car with the delinquents than with him. Compare Goetz's case with that of the anonymous Chicago man who, when confronted with an actual threat to his life (two hoodlums armed with knives), shot one and permitted the other to flee. Maybe that man was a hero, but Goetz is a nut. David Rubin
sm@cadre.UUCP (01/19/85)
In article <302@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP writes: >Interestingly, today's radio news on the way to work included a report >of a similar incident in Chicago--a man shot two punks who tried to hold >him up with knives. He used a gun concealed in a paper bag. While I >feel it is wrong to punish these low-lifes too harshly (i.e., by killing >them) it is definitely a good thing to put some fear into their pointy >little heads. > >--J. Abeles More interestingly, (according to the evening news), the Chicago "authorities" have decided not to pursue this man. Apparently witnesses were able to state that he had "clearly" been the victim of an attempted molestation. When we think about the power that our courts have to interpret the law we shouldn't forget how much authority the local police departments and county prosecutor's office have in deciding which cases actually come to trial. Sean McLinden
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (01/21/85)
> (4) Some of his bullets of the dum-dum variety, indicating > that the infliction of pain was as much on his mind as > self-defense. While I personally feel that Goetz used much more force than was necessary to defend himself, I can't help but wonder about statements like this. Bullets come in two flavors: those which are fully jacketed, and those which are not. The non-fully jacketed ones are used for hunting, and expand when they hit, which (usually) keeps the animal from running on for a few miles and dying back in the brush somewhere, which would be a useless waste of meat. The fully jacketed ones are used by armies and cops, and usually do less damage. When a bullet is used on a person, the press apparently checks to see which kind was used. If it's the common variety used for hunting, they call it a dum-dum. If it's the kind used by cops, they call it an 'armour piercing' type, since the fully jacketed variety is more capable of penetration than the other kind. Either way, to the average non-gun using person, it ends up sounding as though whoever shot the bullet went to great lengths to get special killer type bullets, and apparently the press encourages this, as it makes the event more sensational. -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "You see, we KNEW he'd lost control when he built a fire on Main Street and shot it full of holes." - Dylan
genesis@ihu1e.UUCP (the bowling ball) (01/21/85)
In article <302@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP writes: >Interestingly, today's radio news on the way to work included a report >of a similar incident in Chicago--a man shot two punks who tried to hold >him up with knives. He used a gun concealed in a paper bag. While I >feel it is wrong to punish these low-lifes too harshly (i.e., by killing >them) it is definitely a good thing to put some fear into their pointy >little heads. > >--J. Abeles This should be the facts in the Chicago case: 1. The man was returning home from the grocery store, he was carrying a bag of groceries at the time he was approached by the two assailants. 2. The man had to drop his bag of groceries to draw his gun. He did not have it concealed in a bag. 3. The man fired three shots, one of the shots hit one of the assailants in the head, the other got away. 4. Then the man had to pick up his groceries back up and continue home. The Chicago Police said that they "probably" would not press charges against the man, if he comes forward. The one boy that he shot was in critical condition, though. -- Russ Sehnoutka --------- AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!ihu1e!genesis ------ Naperville, Illinois
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (01/24/85)
"dum-dum" is not a synonym for non-fully jacketed bullets, but rather refers to the subset with hollow heads. David Rubin
jcp@brl-tgr.ARPA (Joe Pistritto <jcp>) (01/27/85)
Technically, a 'dum-dum' bullet is one with an X cut into the [flat] forward face of the bullet. This is the -ONLY- thing you will see called that in any reasonable reloading manual. Bullets with hollow forward sections are called 'hollow-point'. The hollowed out portion is almost always pentagonally shaped. 'Explosive' rounds are made by taking a 'hollow point' round and filling the hollow with explosive material. (order of a gram or so). The explosive effect is not really all that great, it just is there to ensure expansion once the bullet enters the body, (a problem with higher velocity bullets, or ones with small cross sections, like .22). 'Armor Piercing' ammunition is made with bullets that have a hardened steel penetrator forming the front of the bullet. They look rather conventional, (like a non-hollow point), except that the plating is usually a different color on front. Traditional (single component, non-hollow point), are available in several forms: Wad-cutter - where the front surface is flat, and the entire bullet consists of a cylinder of lead, flat on both ends. Used for target practice, as it makes nice sharp holes in the target (other types tear the target). Semi-wad-cutter - like the above, except the bullet starts to curve in at the fron before becoming flat. Looks like the traditional form, cut off about 1/3 of the way to the tip. Traditional aerodynamic shaped bullet - curves in to a point about a millimeter across or less. These, and semi-WC are available as metal-jacketed (generally in the higher velocities to avoid barrel fouling with lead), and partially metal jacketed (just the part that touches the barrel, not the tip). Standard US military ammo for rifles is full metal jacketed, standard aerodynamic shaped bullets. I believe the same is true for .45 automatic pistols. Ammunition with hollow front sections, and cut bullets (like dum-dums) are not allowed to be used in combat by the Geneva Conventions (I forget which). The easiest way to make a dum-dum is to take a lead-only wad-cutter or semi-wadcutter and cut a cross on the front surface. (Not real difficult). The idea is to score the surface so that the four pieces will divurge when striking the body. From what I have read, Goetz's gun contained HOLLOW-POINT ammunition, incorrectly termed 'dum-dum' by the press. Good sense on his part, actually, that is the preferred kind of ammunition if you want to stop someone at close range. Many (MANY!) police departments use precisely this ammunition, for exactly this reason. And yes, its what sits in the .357 next to the bed in my house. If I ever have to USE that thing, I'd rather NOT have to fire a second shot... -JCP-
gnome@olivee.UUCP (Gary Traveis) (02/06/85)
Something that is also overlooked when talking about hollow-point bullets is that they tend to be chosen by police because they expend all of their energy when they hit their target. I a cop uses non-hollow point bullets in an urban environment, chances are that the bullet will go in one side, out the other and into bystanders. I have to agree with the comment about the press knowing of only two kinds of bullets -Armor piercing , and Dum Dum. Dum dee dum ... Gary