lautzy@nmtvax.UUCP (05/06/85)
Sorry if this has been posted before, but it just came up in my "life":
I was hacking one morning (around 3:30am) with a friend, and someone came
in the user area and started smoking. My friend is very bothered by this,
and asked the person to please stop (very nicely, I thought). She flatly
refused, saying "You're just playing games, I'm doing school work. Nobody's
going to stop me from getting my education!" (sic). Two other people in the
room agreed with my friend (including me) that it bothered them too, but she
said that she would "chain-smoke" since it bothered us so much. She even at
one point half threatened us (with physical violence, even!)
Now what I want to know is: Is there anything we can do about this? There
used to be a no-smoking sign in the user area (someone tore it down), but the
person said she wouldn't pay attention to it, anyway. What do you do with
people like this? I don't relish the thought of getting cancer just because
someone wanted to "toke it up" in my presence! (These WERE only regular
cigarettes, but still...)
Any comments out there?
--
-Lautzy (Romulan)
...unmvax!nmtvax!guads
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|__/albert@harvard.ARPA (David Albert) (05/08/85)
> I was hacking one morning (around 3:30am) with a friend, and someone came > in the user area and started smoking. My friend is very bothered by this, > and asked the person to please stop (very nicely, I thought). She flatly > refused, saying "You're just playing games, I'm doing school work. Nobody's > going to stop me from getting my education!" (sic). Two other people in the > room agreed with my friend (including me) that it bothered them too, but she > said that she would "chain-smoke" since it bothered us so much. She even at > one point half threatened us (with physical violence, even!) > > Now what I want to know is: Is there anything we can do about this? > > -Lautzy (Romulan) > ...unmvax!nmtvax!guads Well, legally, that depends on what city you're in, and who owns the building you were in. Several cities in my area, including Cambridge, MA, have passed laws that prohibit smoking in "public places" (I don't know the legal definition of that phrase) and in certain other areas. However, it is generally very difficult to enforce these laws. I have been physically threatened on the Boston subway (MBTA) several times for asking someone to stop smoking, including once, when I was twelve, by an MBTA inspector! Throughout the subway system are signs stating that smoking in the stations or on the cars is punishable by Massachusets general law, but that sure doesn't stop anyone. I have never been able to get an MBTA official to request that people stop smoking, although I have heard them make announcements over the loudspeakers on the subject a few times. My view of the matter, although I am usually too shy/scared/whatever to do anything about it, is that after I have asked someone to stop smoking around me, whether or not it is legal for them to do so, they have an obligation to stop. There are exceptions to this rule: in someone else's house, they can do as they please (but I will stop visiting them), and if I have no real reason to hang around where they are, I find it more prudent simply to leave. If they do not stop? Well, one of my friends carries around a water squirter, and I have seriously considered doing the same. Maybe I should. -- David Albert ihnp4!seismo!harvard!albert (albert@harvard.ARPA)
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (05/09/85)
In article <nmtvax.473> lautzy@nmtvax.UUCP (Steven Lautzenheiser) writes: > >I was hacking one morning (around 3:30am) with a friend, and someone came >in the user area and started smoking. My friend is very bothered by this, >and asked the person to please stop (very nicely, I thought). She flatly >refused, saying "You're just playing games, I'm doing school work. Nobody's >going to stop me from getting my education!" (sic). Two other people in the >room agreed with my friend (including me) that it bothered them too, but she >said that she would "chain-smoke" since it bothered us so much. She even at >one point half threatened us (with physical violence, even!) > >Now what I want to know is: Is there anything we can do about this? There >used to be a no-smoking sign in the user area (someone tore it down), but the >person said she wouldn't pay attention to it, anyway. What do you do with >people like this? I don't relish the thought of getting cancer just because >someone wanted to "toke it up" in my presence! (These WERE only regular >cigarettes, but still...) > Why were you afraid of physical violence? You had her outnumbered! How about keeping a pail of water on hand for putting out such fires! Frank Silbermann
root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) (05/09/85)
> I was hacking one morning (around 3:30am) with a friend, and someone came > in the user area and started smoking. My friend is very bothered by this, > and asked the person to please stop (very nicely, I thought). She flatly > refused, saying "You're just playing games, I'm doing school work. Nobody's > going to stop me from getting my education!" (sic). Two other people in the > room agreed with my friend (including me) that it bothered them too, but she > said that she would "chain-smoke" since it bothered us so much. She even at > one point half threatened us (with physical violence, even!) > > Now what I want to know is: Is there anything we can do about this? There > used to be a no-smoking sign in the user area (someone tore it down), but the > person said she wouldn't pay attention to it, anyway. Install a Halon system in the computer room. Here at the ATF we have a fire-control system that will dump 1000 lbs of Halon at extreme pressure should the fire system detect even a whiff of smoke. The Halon smothers the flames by eliminating all of the oxygen in the room. Halon "dispensers" are REALLY impressive when they go off because they send just about everything that isn't bolted down, flying. Within 30 seconds there won't be enough oxygen in the room to support a poodle, much less a human being. Each re-charge also costs about $10,000 so you do this ONLY on New-Years eve partys. No one smokes in MY facility. -- UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root - Lord Frith ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO Nasha Lutcha!
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (05/10/85)
> Install a Halon system in the computer room. Here at the ATF we have a > fire-control system If it is installed in accordance with the NFPA guidelines then... > that will dump 1000 lbs of Halon at extreme > pressure should the fire system detect even a whiff of smoke. The > Halon smothers the flames by eliminating all of the oxygen in the > room. Wrong, it requires two detectors to go off before it will dump the system. In addition, HALON doesn not work by displacing the oxygen. As a matter of fact, they aren't quite sure how it works. One theory is free radical displacement, I'm not a chemist so I don't understand all what they are describing. > > Within 30 > seconds there won't be enough oxygen in the room to support a poodle, > much less a human being. Sorry, if the system has been properly installed, there isn't enough Halon to fully displace the atmosphere in the room. You can breathe in a Halon environment, they believe it has no harmful effects, at least for four hours. A bigger problem is the gases given off by your partially burned computer. It does however make a mess of your computer room by blowing the ceiling tiles and every other loose object in the room around. -Ron
root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) (05/10/85)
>> that will dump 1000 lbs of Halon at extreme pressure should the fire >> system detect even a whiff of smoke. The Halon smothers the flames by >> eliminating all of the oxygen in the room. > Wrong, it requires two detectors to go off before it will dump the system. > In addition, HALON doesn not work by displacing the oxygen. As a matter > of fact, they aren't quite sure how it works. One theory is free radical > displacement, I'm not a chemist so I don't understand all what they are > describing. My we ARE touchy today, Arndt we? Note I didn't claim that Halon displaces oxygen... only that it eliminates it. A nice vague term that gets the idea across without being overly specific about the underlying mechanism. Also, you are correct about the system firing only when TWO detectors go off... but then so what? The point is that these detectors are SENSITIVE! >> Within 30 seconds there won't be enough oxygen in the room to support a >> poodle, much less a human being. > Sorry, if the system has been properly installed, there isn't enough Halon > to fully displace the atmosphere in the room. You can breathe in a Halon > environment, they believe it has no harmful effects, at least for four hours. No one here suffered any ill side-effects after last New Year's eve, so I guess Halon itself is reasonably safe. Boy what a party! Paper, pencils, erasers... poodles.... flying everywhere! I guess I should have included a smiley... well here ya go... ;-) -- UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root - Lord Frith ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO Nasha Lutcha!
neal@denelvx.UUCP (Neal Weidenhofer) (05/11/85)
****************************************************************************** > > > Install a Halon system in the computer room. Here at the ATF we have a > > fire-control system > ... > > It does however make a mess of your computer room by blowing the ceiling > tiles and every other loose object in the room around. > > -Ron I also know of a fellow who was in a computer room when one went off and came out permanently hearing-impaired. He collected workmen's comp for it too. This was many years ago; they may have fixed this problem by now. Regards, Neal Weidenhofer "The law is for protection Denelcor, Inc. of the people" <hao|csu-cs|brl-bmd>!denelcor!neal
wcs@ho95b.UUCP (Bill Stewart) (05/15/85)
> > Halon "dispensers" are REALLY impressive when they go off because they > send just about everything that isn't bolted down, flying. Within 30 > seconds there won't be enough oxygen in the room to support a poodle, > much less a human being. Each re-charge also costs about $10,000 so > you do this ONLY on New-Years eve partys. We've done Halon dumps for initial testing after installation, and they haven't thrown much stuff around, but it's still impressive. The standards for Halon concentration say max 10%, min 5% for n minutes. This is enough to put out the fire without killing you (at least not rapidly.) However, the stuff is heavier than air; unlike regular fire situations, you SHOULD NOT CRAWL out of the room; stay up high where the oxygen still is. -- Bill Stewart 1-201-949-0705 AT&T Bell Labs, Room 4K-435, Holmdel NJ {ihnp4,allegra,cbosgd,vax135}!ho95c!wcs
clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (05/16/85)
In article <413@ho95b.UUCP> wcs@ho95b.UUCP (Bill Stewart) writes: >This is enough to put out the fire without killing you (at least not >rapidly.) However, the stuff is heavier than air; unlike regular fire A friend of my wife's works at an installation (in Mountain View CA.) where the Fire Insurance company insisted that the doors be automatically locked when the Halon dumps. Seems reasonable to prevent people from walking into the Halon-filled room doesn't it? Wrongo, they insisted that the doors not be opennable from the inside! Presumeably because they don't want somebody openning the door and letting all of the Halon out. So, the equipment survives but the poor suckers caught inside might not. This is because if the room isn't sealed well enough the fire will continue anyways, and if the room is really sealed well, the Halon plus a really greedy hot fire might reduce the oxygen content well below breathability before the fire goes out. Besides, oxygen lack while waiting for the doors to be openned from outside may make you collapse - into the Halon cloud. Fortunately the Halon systems that I have worked around give you lots of rather loud warnings before they actuate anything. I knew of a site where the Halon has dumped accidentally twice and the operators ran the system by dashing in and out to the system console and tape drives. I know that Halon isn't poisonous, and I know that it is designed to not reduce the oxygen content below breathability (when dealing with most fires), but breathing it without much oxygen for any length of time ain't healthy. I think that the Fire Insurance company changed the requirements after all of the employees screamed a lot. -- Chris Lewis, UUCP: {allegra, linus, ihnp4}!utzoo!mnetor!clewis BELL: (416)-475-8980 ext. 321
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (05/20/85)
> This is because if the room isn't > sealed well enough the fire will continue anyways, and if the room is > really sealed well, the Halon plus a really greedy hot fire might > reduce the oxygen content well below breathability before the fire goes > out. I sure wish the Halon folks were on the net. The comments above are at considerable variance to what I've been told about Halon. Here's how I remember it... There are two different kinds of Halon -- Halon 1211 is normally used in hand-held extinguishers, and should be used only in a well-ventilated area. Halon 1301 is normally used in the total-flood systems that have been the topic of discussion. Both forms of Halon produce toxic byproducts in the presence of fire. That's why Halon 1211 shouldn't be used in an unventilated area. Halon 1301 not only produces toxic byproducts, but combustible byproducts as well. It is imperative that a Halon 1301 total-flood system be capable of completely squelching all fire instantly, before the byproducts can form in any quantity. The Halon folks are insistent that neither form of Halon "displaces oxygen" or in any way hinders life, except when the toxic byproducts form from exposure to fire. At least, that's how I remember it... Now what's this doing in net.flame?? -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{ihnp4,seismo,decvax}!noao!terak!doug ^^^^^--- soon to be CalComp
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (05/21/85)
> Both forms of Halon produce toxic byproducts in the presence of fire. > That's why Halon 1211 shouldn't be used in an unventilated area. > Toxic byproducts form in the presence of fire even without HALON. That big collection of plastic there is releasing carbon monoxyide, hydrogen chloride, hydrogen cyanide, and other chemicals just by burning. NFPA studies show that you ought to beable to survive for at least four hours in the Halon environment (the tests were performed on dogs, I believe). Before entering hazerdous environments of this nature you shoul put on Self Contained Breathing Appuratus, preferably Positive Pressure. -Ron
peter@yetti.UUCP (Runge) (05/28/85)
In article <570@terak.UUCP> doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) writes: >> sealed well enough the fire will continue anyways, and if the room is **** >> really sealed well, the Halon plus a really greedy hot fire might **** >> reduce the oxygen content well below breathability before the fire goes **** >> out. > > > ... Now what's this doing in net.flame?? Come on, Doug! Surely you can figure that one out!? -- Peter H. Roosen-Runge, Department of Computer Science, York University Toronto (Downsview), Ontario