nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (02/02/85)
> From: sherouse@unc.UUCP (George W. Sherouse) > First, may I be the first to say that "The Dreaming" is neither > the best record ever or even the best Kate Bush album ever > because *I* say so. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong. > As the original slavering review pointed out the sound is highly > derivative of the Peter Gabriel sound which is highly derivative > of various third world artists' imitations of western music. "The Dreaming" is certainly not "derivative" of Peter Gabriel (and I never said such a thing). It is true that Kate Bush has been influenced by Peter Gabriel, but she is also highly original. I think it is also fair to say that Peter Gabriel has been influenced by Kate Bush. They have worked together, and their music has evolved together. (Kate Bush's influence on Peter Gabriel is certainly apparent in his recent concerts, where he does mime and stuff while singing. Kate Bush was doing this a long time ago.) Peter Gabriel's music is not "derivative" of the African music that influences him. He uses some African rhythms in his music, but he certainly isn't copying or imitating anyone. Your argument is like saying that because Picasso was influenced by Van Gogh, his art is "derivative" of Van Gogh. Art is always based in what others have done. No musician sits in his basement, totally isolated from the entire history of music, and creates masterpieces. Artists build upon what is being done and what has already been done -- creating the new out of the old. If your accusations about Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel were true, we would expect to find pseudo-African rhythms on "The Dreaming", wouldn't we? But there aren't any African-sounding rhytms on it. Kate Bush isn't imitating Peter Gabriel, and Peter Gabriel isn't imitating anyone else. > Kate's *real* best work is her earlier stuff (literally) before > her loss of innocence. In particular, check "The Kick Inside". Her earlier stuff is certainly excellent, but it doesn't approach the greatness of "The Dreaming". "The Dreaming" is probably significantly different than her other albums, because Kate produced "The Dreaming", giving her complete artistic control over it. "The Kick Inside" was produced by someone who was much more conscious about commercial success. Kate Bush didn't really pick the songs that appeared on "The Kick Inside". She had written about 200 songs at the time. Most of them were about things like murder, mayhem, mythology, and the occult. The record company selected for the album the songs of her that were innocently sensous and lusty, knowing that they could make loads of money off of the sex-appeal of an innocent/naughty 15-17 year old girl. The album is still wonderful, because even though she didn't select the songs, she, of course, wrote them all and her genius shines through. You do Kate Bush a disservice by saying that her early album which was targeted for commercial success is better than her recent work into much more artistic areas, and expressing such opinions certainly can't help in the uphill battle to shun commerciality. "Welcome to the ofshoots of Jupiter," Doug Alan mit-eddie!nessus Nessus@MIT-MC P.S. I don't want to discourage anyone from buying "The Kick Inside" (In fact I'd encourage you strongly to buy it!) It is truly an excelent album, and is unusual in that it often expresses strong sexuality and sensuality in a very innocent and pure way, even when it discusses the enjoyment of sex without love necessarily being involved. ("It could be love, or it could be just lust, but it will be fun.") Example lyrics from "L'amour Looks Something Like You", a song about a one night stand: You came out of the night Wearing a mask in white colour My eyes were shining on the wine And your aura All in order, we move into the boudoir But too soon, the morning has resumed I'm hanging on the Old Goose Moon You look like an angel Sleeping it off at a station Were you only passing through? I'm dying for you just to touch me And feel all the energy rushing right up-a-me L'amour looks something like you The thoughts of you send me shivery I'm dressed in lace sailing down a black reverie My heart is thrown to the pebbles And the boatmen All the time I find I'm living in that evening With that feeling of sticky love inside
sherouse@unc.UUCP (George W. Sherouse) (02/07/85)
In article <mit-eddi.3544> nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes: >... (Kate >Bush's influence on Peter Gabriel is certainly apparent in his recent >concerts, where he does mime and stuff while singing. Kate Bush was >doing this a long time ago.) This is Earth isn't it? Peter Gabriel was dressing up as a pansy (the flower, Bucko) when Kate was still in diapers. "...We watched in reverence while Narcissus was turned into a flower..." >No musician sits in his basement, totally isolated from the entire >history of music, and creates masterpieces. Ever hear of Neu? How about their other half, Kraftwerk? And what about Frippertronics. Eno's Snake guitar. Music to be in the basement by. Certainly not derivative. >If your accusations about Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel were true, we >would expect to find pseudo-African rhythms on "The Dreaming", wouldn't >we? But there aren't any African-sounding rhytms on it. I didn't say African, I said third world. Pay attention. The title "The Dreaming", the concept of the title song, and most certainly the rhythm and instrumentation are closely coupled with the aborigines of the land downunder. Also check the phrasing. No little British girl is going to sing God Save The Queen like Kate sings "Bang-a-goes-a-nuth-a-kang-a-on-a-bon-it-uh-the-van". Give me a break. >..."The Dreaming" is probably significantly >different than her other albums, because Kate produced "The Dreaming", >giving her complete artistic control over it. "The Kick Inside" was >produced by someone who was much more conscious about commercial >success. Some are meant to lead and others to be led. >The record company selected for the album the songs of her that were >innocently sensous and lusty, knowing that they could make loads of >money off of the sex-appeal of an innocent/naughty 15-17 year old girl. Worked, too. Did anybody else catch her "Rolling the Ball" on SNL? What I was trying to say, and I stick by it, is that Kate's work was significantly more robust when she was experimenting less. She is a very talented vocalist and lyricist. She should stick with what she knows. Leave the experimenting to the professionals. Good tunes to you, George W. Sherouse <decvax!mcnc!unc!godot!sherouse> "I wish I was somethin'. I wish I was good. I wish I was made of mahogany wood."
toml@rlgvax.UUCP (Tom Love) (02/07/85)
> > As the original slavering review pointed out the sound is highly > > derivative of the Peter Gabriel sound which is highly derivative > > of various third world artists' imitations of western music. > > "The Dreaming" is certainly not "derivative" of Peter Gabriel (and I > never said such a thing). It is true that Kate Bush has been influenced > by Peter Gabriel, but she is also highly original. I think it is also > fair to say that Peter Gabriel has been influenced by Kate Bush. They > have worked together, and their music has evolved together. (Kate > Bush's influence on Peter Gabriel is certainly apparent in his recent > concerts, where he does mime and stuff while singing. Kate Bush was > doing this a long time ago.) ack. "gabriel doing mime and stuff." fancy that. he must be really grateful to kate bush for teaching him how to do stuff while singing. in case you weren't aware, peter gabriel has been combining mime, makeup, outrageous costumes, and theatricality in his performances since kate bush was nothing but a kick inside. ever hear of a band called genesis? tom love computer consoles inc - office systems group {seismo | allegra | ihnp4} !rlgvax!toml
nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (02/09/85)
> From: toml@rlgvax.UUCP (Tom Love) >> From mit-eddie!nessus (Doug Alan) [Me]: >> I think it is also fair to say that Peter Gabriel has >> been influenced by Kate Bush. They have worked >> together, and their music has evolved together. (Kate >> Bush's influence on Peter Gabriel is certainly apparent >> in his recent concerts, where he does mime and stuff >> while singing. Kate Bush was doing this a long time >> ago.) > ack. "gabriel doing mime and stuff." fancy that. he must be really > grateful to kate bush for teaching him how to do stuff while singing. > in case you weren't aware, peter gabriel has been combining > mime, makeup, outrageous costumes, and theatricality in his > performances since kate bush was nothing but a kick inside. > ever hear of a band called genesis? Of course -- I never saw a Genesis concert, though, so I admit I could have been wrong. But I doubt if Kate Bush picked this up from Peter Gabriel, because she was into being theatrical before there was any apparent connection between the two. In fact, 10 years ago Kate Bush took two years off between obtaining her record contract and recording her first album so that she could study dance and mime, which would be used in her concerts. This was certainly long, long before Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel converged musically. Also, having seen both a Peter Gabriel concert and a Kate Bush concert (The Kate Bush concert on video tape), Kate Bush seemed more at home dancing and miming while singing. I assumed this was because she had been doing it longer, but it may be just because she had spent two concentrated years studying it. But in any case, it really makes no difference. Because no matter who is influencing whom, they are still both highly original, and different, even if they have similar artistic goals. They may both be into theatrical performances, but both of their performances are very different. Peter Gabriel seems to tend toward the more simple. (He mimes alone.) Kate Bush tends toward the more complex. She dances into addition to miming (how she manages to dance and sing at the same time, I don't know) and has other dancers dancing with her. The both use strange rhythms, but they don't use the same rhythms. They are both into making their music emotional, but they do it in different ways. They both use obscure instruments, but not the same obscure instruments. They both sing about unusual things, but not the same things. "The Dreaming" is much more layered -- it has more going on at any instant than any Peter Gabriel album (I won't claim this is necessarily an advantage -- it's just different (and I like it better)). Peter Gabriel certainly wouldn't say that he feels Kate Bush is copying him. He must respect her as an artist or he wouldn't do duets with her and he wouldn't have appeared as guest host on her BBC TV special. Listening to a Kate Bush album and a Peter Gabriel album are two different and complementary experiences. "You can dance. You can make me laugh. You've got x-ray eyes." Doug Alan mit-eddie!nessus Nessus@MIT-MC
nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (02/11/85)
["Space is what I need -- it's what I feed on."] >> [Me] No musician sits in his basement, totally isolated >> from the entire history of music, and creates >> masterpieces. > [sherouse@unc.UUCP (George W. Sherouse)] Ever hear of Neu? No. > How about their other half, Kraftwerk? And what about > Frippertronics. Eno's Snake guitar. Music to be in the > basement by. Certainly not derivative. Fine. Kraftwerk, Frip, and Eno create masterpieces too. But they certainly haven't been isolated from the history of music. They use western instruments, western scales, and western rhythms in their music. They also combine this with their own inventions and other things. Why is it that if Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush decide to use non-western instruments and non-western rhythms (combined with their own inventions, western instruments and rhythms, etc.) they are suddenly derivative??? They aren't! Your argument is a pile of crap! >> If your accusations about Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel >> were true, we would expect to find pseudo-African >> rhythms on "The Dreaming", wouldn't we? But there >> aren't any African-sounding rhythms on it. > I didn't say African, I said third world. Pay attention. The > title "The Dreaming", the concept of the title song, and most > certainly the rhythm and instrumentation are closely coupled > with the aborigines of the land downunder. Also check the > phrasing. No little British girl is going to sing God Save The > Queen like Kate sings > "Bang-a-goes-a-nuth-a-kang-a-on-a-bon-it-uh-the-van". But you said that Kate Bush was derivative of Peter Gabriel. Peter Gabriel uses some African rhythms in his music. Perhaps some American Indian too. But no Aborigine. If Kate Bush was merely derivative of Peter Gabriel, there would be no way for her to get Aborigine instruments and rhythms in her music. Also, since the song "The Dreaming" is about the rape and destruction of Aborigine culture, it seems perfectly reasonable to use some Aborigine instruments in the song, and to sing the saracastic voice with an Australian accent. Not only that, but your basing your whole rediculous argument on one song? There is only ONE song on "The Dreaming" inspired by third world music. There is one other song inspired by ethnic music, "Night of the Swallow", which has a strong Irish influence. That's two songs out of ten. Hardly excessive! > Give me a break. Ditto. >> ..."The Dreaming" is probably significantly different >> than her other albums, because Kate produced "The >> Dreaming", giving her complete artistic control over it. >> "The Kick Inside" was produced by someone who was much >> more conscious about commercial success. > Some are meant to lead and others to be led. Some would have great artistic minds limited and constrained for the sake of a buck. ("Would you break even my wings, like a swallow.") >> The record company selected for the album the songs of >> her that were innocently sensous and lusty, knowing that >> they could make loads of money off of the sex-appeal of >> an innocent/naughty 15-17 year old girl. > Worked, too. Did anybody else catch her "Rolling the Ball" on SNL? It was certainly a commercially wise decision. I'm sure they made plenty of money. But is that the point of art? No! > What I was trying to say, and I stick by it, is that Kate's work > was significantly more robust when she was experimenting less. > She is a very talented vocalist and lyricist. She should stick > with what she knows. Leave the experimenting to the > professionals. Well foo! "The Dreaming" is an order of magnitude better than any of her previous albums. Now that she has the freedom to experiment and expand herself artistically, her true genius glows unobstructed by commercial clutter. She is a very talented vocalist and lyricist and that talent would be wasted on anything less ambitious than what she has been doing recently. No one should let themselves get stuck in a rut. Leave the experimenting to the true artists, like Kate Bush. So there! "Narrow mind would persecute it, Die a little to get to it." Doug Alan mit-eddie!nessus Nessus@MIT-MC P.S. I don't see anything exceptionally innovative about the album "Everything but the Girl", though I wouldn't argue with the term "competent".
ckk@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (Chris Koenigsberg) (02/11/85)
Someone was criticizing Kate Bush's latest album because she was finally doing her own production, stretching out, finding some exciting things she could do on her own, instead of obeying the corporate producer like a good little sexpot girl and making money for her oh-so-benevolent record company....this attitude of complete ignorance infuriates me as a musician and a person. Anyone who can say "One should stick to what one's good at and leave the experimenting to the professionals" is part of the dead mass that blindly obeys corporate musical headquarters, and ruins the lives of many brilliant starving experimentalists. May you get stuck in an elevator for forty days and forty nights with nothing but REO Speedwagon to listen to. Chris Koenigsberg
nm34@sdcc12.UUCP (nm34) (02/12/85)
> kate bush was nothing but a kick inside. ever hear of a band called genesis? > > tom love > computer consoles inc - office systems group > {seismo | allegra | ihnp4} !rlgvax!toml ever hear of sheet music on toilet paper? kevin carlson via nm34