rcd@nbires.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (06/18/86)
[I'm posting this because I see so much friction between headhunters and
engineers due to gross breach of etiquette. It might not quite fit net.
jobs, but net.jobs.d doesn't really exist (yet?), and it's of interest to
employers, employees, and intermediaries. Followups to net.misc, please;
let's not clutter net.jobs.]
I get a lot of calls and letters from headhunters--some looking for people,
some looking to place people. Some of the interactions absolutely amaze
me. There are suggestions which might help both recruiters and the people
they (wish to) represent...
I'm in Colorado. I got a call from someone in CA that I'd never heard
of, leaving NO message but asking me to return the call. I tried to
call back (though I usually wouldn't) and missed the person. Shortly
after, I went out of town for a bit; when I returned there were four
messages from the same person--all "please call back" but NO identi-
fication, NO reason, NO message. Two days later I got a letter from
this person, a headhunter, with three resume's enclosed! The letter
asked me to review them and let him know if I was interested.
To headhunters: Don't call without leaving any sort of message, particu-
larly long distance! Why should I spend my dime as well as my time to
find out what you want? You're making the money on the deal; YOU take
the extra effort. Get an 800 number, or say "call collect", or give me
some reason to call you. And for heaven's sake, don't send out a resume'
without a request to do so! Show some respect for the people you
represent.
To job-seekers: Be careful who represents you. I tossed those resume's
and told the headhunter to talk to our personnel dept. (though I don't know
why I bothered!) You don't want someone scattering your resume' to the
wind. It contains a lot of personal information.
I got a letter from a headhunter suggesting that I might be particularly
well qualified for a position she was trying to fill. She requested more
information--a resume' plus completion of her firm's application form,
which asked for a lot of detail--long job and salary history, references,
personal detail, etc. But there was NOTHING about the position, and I'd
never heard of this East-coast recruiter. (Remember, I'm in CO.) So on
a lark, I wrote back asking some general details about the job and about
the recruiting firm. The answer, which came some several weeks later,
was curt to the point of obnoxiousness, telling me that they had filled
the position.
To headhunters: You should establish some basis for trust before you
expect a person to give you his life story. You should also expect that
it's reasonable to go through some "getting acquainted" before you demand
complete info--a sketch of background and interests will get you started.
Third, you should be willing to provide some information about your (em-
ployer) client. You can't expect someone to get very enthusiastic about "a
job" without knowing the basics of job area, salary, location, etc. It's a
give-and-take proposition. My big objection in the anecdote above was that
I was asked for so much information--by a recruiter totally unknown to me,
2000 miles away--and offered so little. [Anyone ever heard of "Binswanger
& Assoc"? It was SO bizarre that I'm curious just who they are!]
To job-seekers: Are you getting a fair shake? Do you know enough about
the job to think that it might make sense for you? Is information flow
being controleed in both directions, to protect reasonable expectations of
privacy--or are you expected to tell all before you find out anything?
Think about what you put in a resume'. Is this information that you'd give
to a total stranger?
N.B.: Although it is common to talk in general terms about salary very
early on in discussions with recruiters, the discussion should be in
general terms, like "low 90's" (:-):-) with room for working around to the
exact numbers later on. Moreover, both salary history and references are
NOT a necessary part of the resume' when you first send it. Salary history
can wait--for the prospective employer--until you're getting slightly
serious. Think about what sort of information you're giving out about
yourself. As for references, it may not be quite as obvious why you want
to hold them back for a bit, but it's a good idea to do so. "References:
Upon request" is quite a common statement for a resume'.
I often get calls during the day: "Hi, Rich! I'd like to talk to you for a
few minutes." My answer is something like, "My name isn't Rich. Who are
you? I'm pretty busy." I respond MUCH more favorably to "Hello, Mr.
Dunn. I'm an executive recruiter with XXX & Co. Would it be convenient
for me to talk to you now?" However, even in this case I often say that
I'm busy and that I'd like to talk later. This isn't a dodge--I usually
AM busy.
To headhunters: Familiarity isn't appropriate for someone you don't know,
and guessing a nickname can make you look like a real jerk. Don't assume
that the person you're calling has time to talk to you. It may be YOUR job
to help people find jobs, but the rest of us have work to do and unless
we're working for a real wacko company we don't spend a lot of time hiring
people or looking for new jobs. If you're reasonable about it, we'll MAKE
the time, but we'll often have to get back to you. Also, a lot of us have
cubicles or work in semi-open areas and CAN'T talk freely without special
arrangement.
To employees and job-seekers: At the outset you should establish the
relationship with a recruiter as a business arrangement. You are not
asking favors; you shouldn't feel a need to coddle or berate the recruiter.
There is work to be done (a job found or a position filled, depending on
which side of the fence) and the recruiter is a person paid to do that job.
If you handle calls from recruiters during the work day, give some thought
to what the call costs your employer. [For a professional: Take your
annual salary. Multiply by 2.5; that's about what it REALLY costs your
employer to have you there. Divide by 2000, the number of nominal work-
hours in a year. That's your hourly cost. Don't be surprised to find out
that you're within a factor of 2 one way or the other of a dollar a
MINUTE!]
One of the most common insults, after the preceding scenario, is that
I'll say that I'm busy but provide ample opportunity to talk at some
later time. I'll set the time, perhaps when I'll be at home, provide my
home phone--and in better than 3/4 of the cases, I'll never hear from the
headhunter again.
I used to forget these incidents. It's happened enough that I've started
making a list of people who do this to me. Then when they stumble across
my name somewhere else a few months later and give me a call (having
completely forgotten that they'd ever talked to me before) and ask for my
time again, I can remind them that they didn't follow up the last time
they called--and tell them to forget it before I waste much time again.
To job-hunters: This is important--if a recruiter can't keep it together
to call back when/where you can talk, what are the chances that he'll
follow up with prospective employers?
To recruiters: DON'T SPACE THE MECHANICS! It's hard enough finding a
match between person and job; don't lose the opportunity on something as
simple as failing to follow up on a phone call. WRITE IT DOWN!
Read what I said I'm doing now for unreliable headhunters. Headhunters are
a dime a dozen; good recruiters are rare but worth their weight in gold
(which is even more than their fee:-)
I don't think that it helps to have a bunch of "that happened to me too"
articles, but I think that it might be interesting for people to add other
do's and don't's to my list. Again, net.misc please, so that we don't
trash out net.jobs if the discussion grows.
--
Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086
...Simpler is better.freed@aum.UUCP (Erik Freed) (06/19/86)
I know that this may seem the wrong newsgroup to post something like this to,
but this is something that happened to me recently and I would like to warn
the rest of the net. Out of the blue a headhunter called recently and she
asked me if I would like some job somewhere. I would have said just no and
goodbye, but it was a bad day and I said that I would only be interested if
it was in the North Bay. (San Francisco area) To this she said that she
did not cover the North Bay and that was that. The next thing I know the
CEO of my company was being told about me as a potential engineer
for him to hire!!! Luckily I managed to explain the reality to a trusting
manager.
Moral of this story is that do not, I repeat, do not ever indicate
even idle interest in their services unless the above situation amuses you
and seems like a good way to impress your `higher-ups'...
"Headhunters are scum and should be avoided like the plague!"
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik James Freed
Aurora Systems
San Francisco, CA
ptsfa!aum!freedtsp@hadron.UUCP (T. Scott Pyne) (06/20/86)
In article <419@opus.nbires.UUCP> rcd@nbires.UUCP (Dick Dunn) writes a good deal of wisdom concerning dealing with recruiters. I will not waste net bandwidth confirming everything he said, though it is all true. I am regularly approached by recruiters over the phone at work, with about a 50/50 split between "let me find you a job" and "please hire these people". Many of them are indeed only a small step above pond scum. When I finally decided to deal with one in seeking a new position, however, it was because he impressed me with his professionalism and honesty. He called me in January; I said "I'm not interested now, call me in April." Wonder of wonders, he called me back in April, and not before. I then told him, "so many headhunters are slime, I want 3 references from *you* of people you have placed recently." Two days later he was back on the phone with names and phone numbers, and sure enough he checked out. Then and only then did we move forward, and I am pleased with the results. The moral? Dick's most telling comment is: > To employees and job-seekers: At the outset you should establish the > relationship with a recruiter as a business arrangement. You are not > asking favors; you shouldn't feel a need to coddle or berate the recruiter. > There is work to be done (a job found or a position filled, depending on > which side of the fence) and the recruiter is a person paid to do that job. Treat a recruiter in the same manner you would treat anyone proposing to do work for you. Get references, check them out, etc. You weed out the slime real fast that way, and the ones that do survive might turn out to be professionals themselves. I am very pleased with my headhunter, even though I will probably take a position I found on my own; the odds are good that he will place me (and earn several kilo$) *sometime* over the next few years. The good ones operate with that kind of long-term relationship in mind. Scott =============== T. Scott Pyne Hadron, Inc. ...!seismo!hadron!tsp "In the old days, the universe was a wonderful place to be. Men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. Nowadays, however, many men are real women, many women are real men, and most small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri are captured, ruthlessly (now where *did* Ruth go off to?) slaughtered, stuffed, and given away as favors at computer trade shows."
jin@hropus.UUCP (Jerry Natowitz) (06/21/86)
> I know that this may seem the wrong newsgroup to post something like this to, > but this is something that happened to me recently and I would like to warn > the rest of the net. Out of the blue a headhunter called recently and she > asked me if I would like some job somewhere. I would have said just no and > goodbye, but it was a bad day and I said that I would only be interested if > it was in the North Bay. (San Francisco area) To this she said that she > did not cover the North Bay and that was that. The next thing I know the > CEO of my company was being told about me as a potential engineer > for him to hire!!! Luckily I managed to explain the reality to a trusting > manager. > > Moral of this story is that do not, I repeat, do not ever indicate > even idle interest in their services unless the above situation amuses you > and seems like a good way to impress your `higher-ups'... > > "Headhunters are scum and should be avoided like the plague!" > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Erik James Freed > Aurora Systems > San Francisco, CA > ptsfa!aum!freed At several companies I worked for it was rumored that management used fake head-hunters to test the loyalty of employees. I don't think that occured at your job because the effect would be a lot more dramatic. Polite head-hunters tell you of the job and then ask you if you know of someone who might be interested. Of course it is you that they are targeting but they don't come off so predatory that way. Despite one bad placement I found head-hunters useful in avoiding the grunt-work of job seeking and providing an entre' to companies that will only hire pre-screened applicants. -- OS-11 Bear ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jin "The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away." Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - Robert Pirsig
tower@mit-prep.ARPA (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) (06/23/86)
This discussion should be taking place in net.jobs.d .
Please add the following line to the header of any further news articles:
Followup-To: net.jobs.d
--
Len Tower
Project GNU of the Free Software Foundation
UUCP: {}!mit-eddie!mit-prep!tower
INTERNET: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu
ORGANIZATION: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation,
1000 Mass. Ave., Cambridge, MA 02138, USA +1 (617) 876-3296
HOME: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739mgrant@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Grant) (07/03/86)
Last year I handed my resume to a head hunter. He completely rewrote it making me seem outstanding, (which I guess it a good thing). The minor problems were a) he added so much crap that wasn't true that when I went in for the interview, I was dumbfounded, b) I didn't see his version of my resume until this interview. Moral: Don't spice *too* much, and always let your client see what you've rewritten about them *BEFORE* their first interview. -Mike Grant (..seismo!dolqci!mgrant or mgrant@mimsy.umd.edu)
crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) (07/07/86)
In article <736@aum.UUCP> freed@aum.UUCP writes: >.... Out of the blue a headhunter called recently and she >asked me if I would like some job somewhere. I would have said just no and >goodbye, but it was a bad day and I said that I would only be interested if >it was in the North Bay. (San Francisco area) To this she said that she >did not cover the North Bay and that was that. The next thing I know the >CEO of my company was being told about me as a potential engineer >for him to hire!!! Luckily I managed to explain the reality to a trusting >manager. > Call this person's boss. Tell the boss about what happened. Your headhunter will be out on her fundamental area of impact (which is apparently also where she keeps her brains.) This is MASSIVELY bad practice and extremely unscrupulous and unethical. It is also very dangerous for the headhunter, because she is liable for any damages. Lots of headhunters have been sued, and have lost massive amounts. > Moral of this story is that do not, I repeat, do not ever indicate >even idle interest in their services unless the above situation amuses you >and seems like a good way to impress your `higher-ups'... > > "Headhunters are scum and should be avoided like the plague!" Say that to me in person and I'll take you out behind the barn. My mother is a headhunter, and is very careful about the ethics of her work. So are 95% of the rest of the business. The rest should be run out of business. So watch your mouth. -- Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm)