de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (08/11/86)
A recent trivia question on the radio has prompted a second question.
The radio asked: "What is the derivation of the size of an acre?"
The answer:"The area that an ox can plow in one day." (Precise).
This led to the realization that the English system used human charachteristics
for its dimemsions: A foot is defined as King William's foot (= size 12 shoe);
an inch is 3 barleycorns; a yard is the distance from the tip of the nose to
the end of your hand; a fathom is twice that, from fingertip to fingertip; etc.
The question I have:
Does anyone know where liquid measure comes from? That is what is a quart, pint
or gallon?
Thanks.
rochester \
David Esan | moscom ! de
ritcv/alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) (08/12/86)
In article <740@moscom.UUCP> de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) writes: >Does anyone know where liquid measure comes from? That is what is a quart, >pint or gallon? According to Knuth, "The common units of liquid measure in England, dating from the 13th century or earlier, are particularly noteworthy: 2 gills = 1 chopin 2 chopins = 1 pint 2 pints = 1 quart 2 quarts = 1 pottle 4 pints 2 pottles = 1 gallon 8 pints 2 gallons = 1 peck 16 pints 2 pecks = 1 demibushel 32 pints 2 demibushels = 1 bushel or firkin 64 pints 2 firkins = 1 kilderkin 128 pints 2 kilderkins = 1 barrel 256 pints 2 barrels = 1 hogshead 512 pints 2 hogsheads = 1 pipe 1024 pints 2 pipes = 1 tun 2048 pints" (I have added the pint equivalents to Knuth's table). I find it interesting that the "tun" works out to a a smidgeon over 2000 (2.5% over) pounds ("a pint's a pound the world around"). I looked up "ton" and "tun" in my dictionary, which lead me to the weights and measures table: US LIQUID MEASURE BRITISH IMPERIAL LIQUID AND DRY MEASURE 8 fluidrams = 1 fluidounce 8 fluidrams = 1 fluidounce 4 fluidounces = 1 gill 5 fluidounces = 1 gill 4 gills = 1 pint 4 gills = 1 pint 16 fluidounces = 1 pint 20 fluidounces = 1 pint (Hence why the imperial gallons of gas we from the lower 48 used to buy in Canada (before Metrification) were == 5 US quarts) Note again that, in the U.S. version, 16 fluid ounces = 1 pound. It would appear that the nice metric property of linking liquid volume with weight (or mass) (1 l masses 1 Kg) is not unique. Questions: (1) Why and when did the Imperial measure add the extra fluid ounce to the gill (or why/when did the US remove it)? (2) The table from Knuth suggests there were more intermediate units between the gill and the fluidram (originally "dram"). Anybody know what they were? -Alan Jeddeloh Tektronix GWD Wilsonville, OR (503) 685-2991 tektronix!orca!alanj References: Knuth, Donald. _The Art of Computer Programming_, Volume 2, page 166. New York. Addison-Wesley Publishing Company. 1969. ---. _Websters New Collegiate Dictionary_. Springfield, Mass., USA. G. & C. Merriam Company. 1973.
greg@ncr-sd.UUCP (Greg Noel) (08/14/86)
In article <2133@orca.UUCP> alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) writes: > 2 pipes = 1 tun 2048 pints" > >I find it interesting that the "tun" works out to a a smidgeon over 2000 >(2.5% over) pounds ("a pint's a pound the world around"). ...... Actually, a pint is slightly more than a pound. My foggy memory tells me that a pint is 1.06 pounds, making one tun about 2,170 pounds -- mighty close to the (Imperial?) "long" ton of 2,200 pounds...... -- -- Greg Noel, NCR Rancho Bernardo Greg@ncr-sd.UUCP or Greg@nosc.ARPA
jin@hropus.UUCP (Jerry Natowitz) (08/14/86)
Despite the saying that "a pint's a pound" to get technical and specific it isn't. One ml or cc (they are not the same, by 24 parts per million, I don't remember which one's larger) of water at 4 degrees weighs 1 gram. One fluid ounce of water is 29.57 ml, one ounce weighs 28.35 grams. So one fluid ounce weighs 1.043 ounces. -- Jerry Natowitz Bell Labs HR 2A-214 201-615-5178 (no CORNET) ihnp4!houxm!hropus!jin or ihnp4!opus!jin
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (08/15/86)
In article <740@moscom.UUCP>, de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) writes: > Does anyone know where liquid measure comes from? > That is what is a quart, pint or gallon? A pint of water weighs about one pound. The saying "A pint's a pound the world around" expresses the mistaken idea that a pint of anything weighs 1 lb. However, this *is* a reasonable approximation, as most liquids, especially aqueous solutions, have a specific density of about 1, give or take 0.1-0.2. -- Barry Buchbinder (608)221-5000 Agrigenetics Corporation; 5649 East Buckeye Road; Madison WI 53716 USA {{harvard|topaz|seismo}!uwvax!|decvax|ihnp4}!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
pete@stc.co.uk (08/15/86)
Summary: Expires: Sender: Keywords: Xref: ukc net.misc:2040 net.games.trivia:1184 Xpath: ukc eagle In article <2133@orca.UUCP> alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) writes: >I find it interesting that the "tun" works out to a a smidgeon over 2000 >(2.5% over) pounds ("a pint's a pound the world around"). Or, as we say in the UK, "A pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter". -- Peter Kendell <pete@tcom.stc.co.uk> ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete "Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light, Himself. It Struck him Dead: and Serve him Right! It is the Business of the Wealthy Man, To give Employment to the Artisan."
alanj@orca.UUCP (Alan Jeddeloh) (08/18/86)
Al right, already! I'm *sorry*! I forgot how nit-picky the net it. My original point was to note (and speculate on)the historic relationships between the traditional units of English measure. These unit were defined *centuries* before people regularly measured within 1 percent of anything. I never claimed an exact, modern relationship -- I'm shy about 48 pounds right off the top. We're talking about the days when an inch was three barley corns laid end-to-end. The rule "a pints a pound the world around" is an old, old rule of thumb. It doubtlessly harkens back to the zenith of the British Empire. It is *still* a useful rule for everyday use (in the backward US, at least). Remembering it allows you to quickly figure in your head how much your new 500-gallon hot tub weighs and whether you need to brace up the deck, for example. (A healthly 2 tons and you may very well have to beef up the deck!) -Alan Jeddeloh Tektronix GWD Wilsonville, OR tektronix!orca!alanj
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (08/19/86)
In article <627@hropus.UUCP>, jin@hropus.UUCP (Jerry Natowitz) writes: > Despite the saying that "a pint's a pound" to get technical and > specific it isn't ... So one fluid ounce weighs 1.043 ounces. I'd say that a rule of thumb that is accurate to about 4% was pretty good. Condider how many scientific calculations are considered OK if they come out within a factor of 10. -- Barry Buchbinder (608)221-5000 Agrigenetics Corporation; 5649 East Buckeye Road; Madison WI 53716 USA {{harvard|topaz|seismo}!uwvax!|decvax|ihnp4}!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
stirling@fortune.UUCP (Patrick Stirling) (08/25/86)
In article <627@hropus.UUCP> jin@hropus.UUCP (Jerry Natowitz) writes: >Despite the saying that "a pint's a pound" to get technical and >specific it isn't. One ml or cc (they are not the same, by 24 parts >per million, I don't remember which one's larger) of water at 4 degrees >weighs 1 gram. One fluid ounce of water is 29.57 ml, one ounce weighs >28.35 grams. So one fluid ounce weighs 1.043 ounces. And don't forget that a British pint (whence I assume the word 'pint' originated) has 20 fluid ounces in it! Also, I think US and UK floz's are different. Although I am british, I have no idea where the word came frim. Webster's thinks it's from the Latin 'pinctere' to paint, via middle english. It would be woth checking the Oxford English dictionary to settle this discussion! patrick {ihnp4, hplabs, amdcad, ucbvax!dual}!fortune!stirling
msb@dciem.UUCP (Mark Brader) (08/29/86)
There is lots to say about this, but I will confine myself to a few points. If you want to find more, go to your library and read all about it! > One ml or cc (they are not the same, by 24 parts > per million, I don't remember which one's larger) of water at 4 degrees > weighs 1 gram. Nope. The original idea, of course, was that 1 ml = 1 cc = volume of 1 g of water at maximum density; and then when the standards were found to be not quite equal, it was resolved my making 1 ml = volume of 1 g of water under appropriate conditions and 1 cc slightly different. However, about 20 years ago the ml was CHANGED and it is now equal to the cc. So the density of water at 4 C is not exactly 1 g/ml any more. By the way, cc is bad notation; it should be written cm-superscript-3. But that does look lousy on terminals. > One fluid ounce of water is 29.57 ml, one ounce weighs > 28.35 grams. So one fluid ounce weighs 1.043 ounces. Correct (to the stated accuracy). However, one British (Imperial) fluid ounce is 28.41 ml, and thus weighs just over 1.002 ounces. ] And don't forget that a British pint (whence I assume the word 'pint' ] originated) has 20 fluid ounces in it! And therefore a British gallon has 160 fluid ounces, and a British gallon of water weighs 10.02+ pounds. Undoubtedly it was supposed to be 10 pounds exactly, but a similar situation to the ml-vs-cc developed, and the same ultimate resolution was chosen. See, the US system has the advantage of keeping everything in powers of 2, with the gallon of 128 fl.oz., but the British system makes a gallon of water near a round weight, and a fluid ounce of water near an ounce. So each system has an advantage. Incidentally, in the U.S. system a gallon is exactly 231 cubic inches. As far as I can tell, this is arbitrary. The British gallon is probably defined in metric now, but used to be defined by an object. Note that the British and U.S. gallons are in the ratio 1.201-; anyone who gives the ratio as 1.25 is thinking the two fluid ounces are equal. By the way, while Canada the British measures in this series, we use the American or short ton (when we don't use metric in each case). The British or long ton of 2240 pounds is, of course, 20 hundredweights of 8 stones of 14 pounds; the short ton (and short hundredweight) presumably arose by round- ing. Stones are still in everyday use in Britain. I don't know about any connection of ton and tun, but as for the metric ton or tonne, it is just a more pronounceable synonym for megagram (Mg), arising because of its similarity at 2205- pounds to one or more of the others. The avoirdupois (ordinary) pound, on which the British volume measures seem to be based, also arose by rounding. The Troy and apothecaries' pound of 12 ounces of 480 grains is older. However, someone decided that 16 ounces to the pound would be more convenient, but then decided that 7680 grains to the pound wouldn't be convenient and rounded it down to 7000, so the avoirdupois ounce is 175/192 of the troy/apothecaries\ ounce. What's even weirder is that in British volume measure the fluid ounce is equal to 8 fluid drams (or drachms) (which I don't think are used any more anyway), just as in apothecaries' weight the ounce is 8 drams, but NOT as in avoirdupois weight on which the volume system is based, because in avoirdupois weight the ounce is 16 drams! So one British fluid dram of of water weighs just about 2 avoirdupois drams. As for pints and pounds, my suspicion is that the phrase arose in Britain in an older era when the two kinds of gallon (and others, I think) were still competing there, and stuck by reason of euphony. But I'm guessing. Mark Brader "I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pedantic and that's just as good." utzoo!dciem!msb -- D Gary Grady