patrick@ism780.UUCP (07/13/84)
#N:ism780:14900010:000:6682
ism780!patrick Jul 11 11:22:00 1984
This is likely to be a long message, but I hope to stimulate some
interesting discussion, and gather some useful information.
I (and many other C64 users, I expect) spend much time bemoaning the lack
of `serious' software for the 64, especially in comparison with the Apple
(which is, after all, no more inherently powerful a machine). I bought
my 64 because it was such good value for money, and on the assumption
that large numbers would be sold, with the result that eventually good
software would become available. I think this is beginning to happen.
It seems that there are now many powerful word-processors available, not
to mention the usual collection of terminal emulators, database systems,
spreadsheets etc. There are at least half-a-dozen assemblers which seem
(from the specifications) to be worth investigation. Even higher-level
languages are now beginning to appear (more later on this).
I recently came across a magazine called "INFO 64", which contains lists
and reviews of large numbers of software products for the 64. The
editors/writers are not afraid to criticise products (always a good
sign), and although the listings are not complete, there is a lot of
useful information in here. Recommended.
Bear with me; I'm getting to the point.
I recently had an opportunity to play with the HES implementation of
Forth for the 64; I was reasonably impressed, but suspect that there is
probably a better version out there somewhere. I consulted INFO 64, and
found to my surprise that there are no less than NINE different Forths
available for the 64 (must say something about the compactness of Forth,
and the ease with which it can be implemented, I suppose.)
Now, how on earth am I to evaluate these different packages when the
average software shop stocks nothing but games for the 64 and business
software for the IBM PC? If I'm lucky, I may find one package in any
particular shop; if I'm very lucky they may allow me to open it and read
the documentation. The usual response, however, is "sorry, we don't
carry that, but we can get it for you". I've been burned before, and now
refuse to buy software I haven't tried, or had strongly recommended by
someone whose opinions I trust.
So, I'm turning to the net for some help. I don't know how many of you
there are out there, but no matter how few, I suspect that between us
we've bought/used/heard of a lot of software. Let's use the net to
pool this knowledge.
I'm attaching a list of all the 'high-level' languages for the 64 listed
in INFO 64 (together with a couple of others I've heard of), and have
added a few comments derived either from that source (enclosed in double
quotes), or from my own experience. Please send mail with your comments
on any you have used. I will collate replies, and post to the net.
BASIC
PetSpeed (Small Systems Engineering) ($150, disk)
Based on a long-established PET compiler, so should be relatively
bug-free. Used to be integer only?
Tiny BASIC Compiler (Abacus) ($20, disk or tape)
"Floating point...produces commented listing of equivalent 6502
code..."
BASM "Compiler/Assembler" (Computer Alliance) ($100, disk)
"...up to 130 times faster than BASIC...uses the syntax of BASIC with
assembly language addressing modes and data types..."
BASIC Compiler (JOU Laboratories) ($30)
DTL Compiler 64 (Cimarron Corp) *
No information.
64 Compiler (Data Equipment Supply Corp) ($100) *
No information.
Insta Speed (Cimarron Corp) *
No information.
* I assume these are BASIC compilers...
MISCELLANEOUS LANGUAGES
Logo (Commodore) ($70, disk)
Solid, professional, slow. Documentation is comprehensive, but lacks
detail on internals. Poor assembly language interface.
Vanilla Pilot (Tamarack Software) ($30, disk or tape)
I don't recommend this. Very limited in comparison with Logo.
Pilot II (Tamarack Software) ($50, disk)
Haven't used this (it's supposed to be an 'enhancement' of Vanilla
Pilot). I doubt that even when enhanced it can match Logo.
Comal (Public domain) ($20, disk)
Still a little buggy, but a great improvement over BASIC. An
interpreted procedural language. Give us a compiler too and we'll be
in business.
Action (Optimized System Software Inc) ($99, cartridge)
A wonderful new language which will be available Real Soon Now.
Crystal (Cygnus Expert Systems Inc ??) (<$60, disk)
"...development language allows intermediate level BASIC programmers
to create sophisticated games. Total control of sprites, interrupts,
sound, animation etc. Uses no BASIC memory, and generates
stand-alone code which can be run on any 64..."
Zoom Pascal (Abacus) ($40, disk or tape)
True compiler (generates 6502 m/code), but rather a toy. A limited
subset of...
KMMM Pascal (CGRS Microtech) ($85, disk)
Sounds interesting - claims to be the real thing.
Limbic Systems also advertise a Pascal compiler ($50, disk)
Manx C is supposedly available on the 64?
FORTH
C64 Forth (Performance Micro Products) ($100, disk)
Sounds pretty good (Forth 79 with lots of extensions, but lacks
sound-controlling words). Assembler. Reviewed in latest INFO 64.
FullForth+ (CGRS Microtech) ($100, disk)
"FIG Forth with string & floating-point extensions. Target compiler
available for $50 extra. Has conditional assembler."
64-Forth (Blue Sky Software) ($60, disk)
"FIG Forth + extensions (400 words in all)...macro assembler".
Forth (Mindworks) ($38, disk or tape)
"FIG Forth with floating-point, graphics, sound extensions....
assembler".
Super Forth 64 (Parsec Research) ($89, disk)
"Supports sound, hi res, color & sprites..`save turnkey' generates
distributable applications disks...conditional macro assembler".
64 Forth (HES) ($60, cartridge)
Adequate; almost complete (no significant omissions) FIG Forth with
extensions for sprites (but no string-handling, hi-res graphics,
sound); seems to be pretty bug-free; editor is very slow.
TRI Forth (Trimicro)
No information.
Tiny Forth (Abacus) ($28, disk or tape)
No information.
Forth 64 (Handic Software Inc) ($40, cartridge)
"...includes macro assembler"
CP/M LANGUAGES
Nevada Cobol, Nevada Fortran (both from Commodore?)
PS: may I make a general request for people to post reviews of software
packages they own or have used? This would be a great help to the
rest of us.
Patrick Curran
Interactive Systems Corp.
1212 Seventh St.
Santa Monica, CA 90401.
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