mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) (09/17/86)
From: mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) > Sure, there is work available for *MANY* (not all) who are able to work. > BUT, can one earn a LIVING WAGE doing the work that is available. In most > cases, no. According to every survey and study I have encountered, of all > the "new jobs" being created by the economy MOST are minimum wage jobs. > It is simply not feasible to provide for a family on minimum wage. Fine. Rather than not work and collect everything they need from welfare, why don't they take the minimum wage job and only get in aid the difference between that income and what they "need" (by welfare standards)? It's the lazy people who decide they don't need to work *at all* in order to receive enough money to live on who are ripping off the taxpayers. And by the way, while it isn't possible to support a family on minimum wage, I do know individuals who are supporting themselves on minimum wage or thereabouts. The implementation of the current welfare system leaves a lot to be desired (as does, probably, the system itself). The system does little to weed out the lazy bums (who are probably a small fraction of welfare recipients), so they take advantage of it. I'm tired of supporting cheats and bums with my money; I don't object to helping the genuinely poor. (And yes, I *do* consider it to be *our* money, not *theirs*. They have no right to it; they are merely receiving it as a gift.) -Dragon -- UUCP: seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!!cmu-cs-cad!mjc or if that doesn't work: {seismo, ihnp4, qantel, ucbvax!ucdavis} !lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) (09/18/86)
In article <1010@cad.cs.cmu.edu>, mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes: > From: mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) > > Sure, there is work available for *MANY* (not all) who are able to work. > > BUT, can one earn a LIVING WAGE doing the work that is available. In most > > cases, no. According to every survey and study I have encountered, of all > > the "new jobs" being created by the economy MOST are minimum wage jobs. > > It is simply not feasible to provide for a family on minimum wage. > > Fine. Rather than not work and collect everything they need from welfare, > why don't they take the minimum wage job and only get in aid the difference > between that income and what they "need" (by welfare standards)? It's the > lazy people who decide they don't need to work *at all* in order to receive > enough money to live on who are ripping off the taxpayers. Well, gee. What a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, people *USED* to be able to do just that. Many people in fact DID take minimum wage jobs, and collect only what they needed as assistance over their pay. Then Reagan was elected to the presidency. One of his earlier actions was to do away with such programs, "to save money." Try checking out the facts next time. This was a harmless enough piece of business, involving a legitimate question. I get so sick of the idiots who claim that welfare recipients are living in "comfort." I suggest that these self-righteous jerks just *TRY* to survive on $456/month for a single mother with one child. Then I will listen to their evaluations of the "comfort" welfare recipients live in. > > And by the way, while it isn't possible to support a family on minimum wage, > I do know individuals who are supporting themselves on minimum wage or > thereabouts. > > The implementation of the current welfare system leaves a lot to be desired > (as does, probably, the system itself). The system does little to weed out > the lazy bums (who are probably a small fraction of welfare recipients), so > they take advantage of it. I'm tired of supporting cheats and bums with my > money; I don't object to helping the genuinely poor. (And yes, I *do* > consider it to be *our* money, not *theirs*. They have no right to it; they > are merely receiving it as a gift.) Oddly enough, I agree that your money is yours. What the "libertarians" fail to comprehend is that the very opportunity to produce wealth is a benefit of the society in which we live. Therefore, it is not completely unreasonable that each individual return a small portion of that wealth to society to provide for societal needs. I'll tell you what, when I see the people bitching about welfare trying to do something constructive about $600 toilet seats, $45 nuts and bolts, and multi-trillion dollar SDI boondoggles, **THEN** I will pay some attention to their complaints. I say they're just using the poor as scapegoats, because the poor aren't in a position to fight back. (of course, *MANY* of the so-called "libertarians" who bitch so loudly about the government make nice comfy livings either directly or indirectly from the government they hate so much) I have said before, and I will say again: I do not accept that society or any individual in society has the right to expect a person to devote their entire workday to performing functions to meet that society's or that individual's needs, and not pay the worker sufficiently to live with dignity and pride. It is not reasonable to expect people to do your dirty work for you, and to live in poverty and degradation as their reward. Anyone who claims otherwise is a self-serving, inconsiderate jack ass. -- Disclaimer: Disclaimer? DISCLAIMER!? I don't need no stinking DISCLAIMER!!! tom keller "She's alive, ALIVE!" {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)
suhre@trwrb.UUCP (Maurice E. Suhre) (09/19/86)
In article <919@gilbbs.UUCP> mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) writes: > Welfare stuff deleted..... > Oddly enough, I agree that your money is yours. What the "libertarians" > fail to comprehend is that the very opportunity to produce wealth is a > benefit of the society in which we live. Therefore, it is not completely > unreasonable that each individual return a small portion of that wealth ^^^^^ > to society to provide for societal needs. If the tax bill passes, and state taxes are deductible, then the marginal rate for us Californians will be .28 + .11 -.28*.11 = 35.9%. Is this a small portion? (Note I've only included income taxes. Not sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, etc.) -- Maurice Suhre {decvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4,ucbvax}!trwrb!suhre
hedge@hpspkla.HP.COM (Alan Hedge) (09/19/86)
Before being too eager to cut back more on welfare, remember that it's probably worth the investment to make sure the poor don't get unhappy enough to do something about their plight. In history, the poor sometimes became noticeably irritated in rather violent and unpredictable ways when things got bad enough. If they happen to gain any measure of control in these situations they are rather unmoved by libertarian arguments from their perceived former oppressors. But there's nothing to worry about as long as we control the vertical and the horizontal. :-) Alan Hedge Hewlett Packard, Spokane Division hp-pcd!hpspkla!hedge
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (09/19/86)
> In article <1010@cad.cs.cmu.edu>, mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes: > > From: mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Thomas J Keller) > > > Sure, there is work available for *MANY* (not all) who are able to work. > > > BUT, can one earn a LIVING WAGE doing the work that is available. In most > > > cases, no. According to every survey and study I have encountered, of all > > > the "new jobs" being created by the economy MOST are minimum wage jobs. > > > It is simply not feasible to provide for a family on minimum wage. > > > > Fine. Rather than not work and collect everything they need from welfare, > > why don't they take the minimum wage job and only get in aid the difference > > between that income and what they "need" (by welfare standards)? It's the > > lazy people who decide they don't need to work *at all* in order to receive > > enough money to live on who are ripping off the taxpayers. > > Well, gee. What a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, people *USED* to be able > to do just that. Many people in fact DID take minimum wage jobs, and > collect only what they needed as assistance over their pay. Then Reagan > was elected to the presidency. One of his earlier actions was to do away > with such programs, "to save money." > I've seen one study on the results -- only about 10% of the "working poor" ended up completely on welfare. The rest were interested enough in working to continue working. I agree that this action by the Reagan Administration was a mistake -- I firmly believe anyone with enough character to work when they could sit back and do nothing are the LAST group that should be penalized. > Try checking out the facts next time. This was a harmless enough piece > of business, involving a legitimate question. I get so sick of the idiots > who claim that welfare recipients are living in "comfort." I suggest that > these self-righteous jerks just *TRY* to survive on $456/month for a single > mother with one child. Then I will listen to their evaluations of the > "comfort" welfare recipients live in. > Levels of comfort differ dramatically. I couldn't live comfortably on less than $3000 a month. I know druggies (like my brother-in-law) who can live comfortably on $400 a month -- of course, he chooses to live at a level I find incredible, because the alternative is working. > > > > And by the way, while it isn't possible to support a family on minimum wage, > > I do know individuals who are supporting themselves on minimum wage or > > thereabouts. > > > > The implementation of the current welfare system leaves a lot to be desired > > (as does, probably, the system itself). The system does little to weed out > > the lazy bums (who are probably a small fraction of welfare recipients), so > > they take advantage of it. I'm tired of supporting cheats and bums with my > > money; I don't object to helping the genuinely poor. (And yes, I *do* > > consider it to be *our* money, not *theirs*. They have no right to it; they > > are merely receiving it as a gift.) > > Oddly enough, I agree that your money is yours. What the "libertarians" > fail to comprehend is that the very opportunity to produce wealth is a > benefit of the society in which we live. Therefore, it is not completely > unreasonable that each individual return a small portion of that wealth > to society to provide for societal needs. > "Small portion"? You obviously haven't looked at a withholding statement recently. > I'll tell you what, when I see the people bitching about welfare trying > to do something constructive about $600 toilet seats, $45 nuts and bolts, > and multi-trillion dollar SDI boondoggles, **THEN** I will pay some > attention to their complaints. I say they're just using the poor as > scapegoats, because the poor aren't in a position to fight back. Pay more attention. Much of the complaining about absurd military spending comes from "cheap conservatives" like Newt Gingrich (R-GA) who resent money being wasted. Also, much of the material on military waste was originated by Ms. Dina Rasor while working on a stipend from the Cato Institute -- a libertarian "think tank". The poor aren't the constituency that fights for welfare -- it's wealthy liberals who want to make sure their good-for-nothing kids have welfare offices to work in when they get out of school. > (of course, *MANY* of the so-called "libertarians" who bitch so loudly > about the government make nice comfy livings either directly or indirectly > from the government they hate so much) > This is an interesting moral problem: is it OK to work on government contracts, since your taxes are funding the contracts, or should a libertarian only work in free market originated businesses? Most libertarians I know try for the latter -- but as the government has enlarged its activities in the last 20 years, this becomes an increasingly difficult action. > I have said before, and I will say again: I do not accept that society > or any individual in society has the right to expect a person to devote > their entire workday to performing functions to meet that society's or > that individual's needs, and not pay the worker sufficiently to live with > dignity and pride. It is not reasonable to expect people to do your > dirty work for you, and to live in poverty and degradation as their > reward. Anyone who claims otherwise is a self-serving, inconsiderate > jack ass. > > tom keller "She's alive, ALIVE!" Define "poverty". Define "degradation". These are highly relative terms. I find being enslaved by the government through taxation to be the most degrading action I will tolerate without violent resistance -- and it's not just the money. I'm offended that I fund a mechanism designed to burn millions of people to death (although I can see no better solution at the moment). I'm offended that I fund a mechanism that rewards laziness and irresponsibility. Speaking of self-serving, inconsiderate jackasses, are you STILL unemployed? There's no shortage of jobs -- maybe you are just lazy to go get a job. I'm not surprised you spend a lot of time trying to justify laziness. Clayton E. Cramer
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (09/23/86)
> Before being too eager to cut back more on welfare, remember that it's > probably worth the investment to make sure the poor don't get unhappy > enough to do something about their plight. In history, the poor sometimes > became noticeably irritated in rather violent and unpredictable ways when > things got bad enough. If they happen to gain any measure of control in > these situations they are rather unmoved by libertarian arguments from > their perceived former oppressors. > > Alan Hedge This assumes that "the poor" have enough initiative to do something organized. It is certainly my feeling from watching how the welfare class lives (from far too close up) that much of the poverty in this country is the result of pure laziness. The one thing I absolutely assure you of: If the lazy bums I've known over the years feel they have a legitimate claim on my wealth, produced by me working while they were off doing their drugs, I don't care how many of them die trying to rob me. Clayton E. Cramer
chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) (09/26/86)
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) says: >The one thing I absolutely assure you of: If the lazy bums I've known over >the years feel they have a legitimate claim on my wealth, produced by me >working while they were off doing their drugs, I don't care how many of >them die trying to rob me. > Hear hear!!! Where people get the notion that someone has a claim on my wealth only by virtue of being a member of the same society I will never know. I have no problems helping those who really need help, but I refuse to finance the activities of those who have no interest in helping themselves. -- Chris Grevstad {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris ihnp4!nrcvax!chris "Plan? There ain't no plan."
ebh@cord.UUCP (Ed Horch) (10/07/86)
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) decries: >the lazy bums I've known [who] feel they have a legitimate claim on my >wealth, produced by me working while they were off doing their drugs And chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) adds: >Hear hear!!! Where people get the notion that someone has a claim on my >wealth only by virtue of being a member of the same society I will never >know. > >I have no problems helping those who really need help, but I refuse to >finance the activities of those who have no interest in helping themselves. I second both motions. I used to live in a town where a substantial fraction of the population lived "on the dole". At the time, the economy was rather depressed, so the scarcity of jobs mitigated the problem greatly. However, when I visit there now, with the local economy booming, I still see the same people in the same projects, on the same welfare, "help wanted" signs notwithstanding. (BTW, this is in a part of the country where one *can* live on minimum wage. At one point, my friends said I was crazy for spending $310/month for a one-bedroom apartment.) Perpetuating the stereotype. *sigh* -Ed Horch ihnp4!cord!ebh
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) (10/07/86)
-- > chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) adds: > >Hear hear!!! Where people get the notion that someone has a claim on my > >wealth only by virtue of being a member of the same society I will never > >know. > > > >I have no problems helping those who really need help, but I refuse to > >finance the activities of those who have no interest in helping themselves. > > I second both motions... > I still see the same people in the same projects, > on the same welfare, "help wanted" signs notwithstanding. (BTW, this > is in a part of the country where one *can* live on minimum wage. At > one point, my friends said I was crazy for spending $310/month for a > one-bedroom apartment.) > > -Ed Horch The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget "dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that you *do* have such obligations. So spare me your lookin'-out-for-ol'- number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. If those unwashed low-lifes knew how lame you are they'd murder you in your sleep. *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 07 Oct 86 [16 Vendemiaire An CXCV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-8042 ** ** ** ** ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!
bill@sigma.UUCP (10/08/86)
In article <2000@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly/Ken Perlow) writes: >>[...] >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that >you *do* have such obligations. [...] Okay, Ken. You're on. Why not let us in on what _your_ ethical system is that demands this obligation? I'm not arguing the obligation; I am curious to hear to your justification.
mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP (Marcus the Ranum) (10/08/86)
In article <2000@ihlpa.UUCP>, gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: > The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > "dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > you *do* have such obligations. So spare me your lookin'-out-for-ol'- > number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. If those unwashed low-lifes > knew how lame you are they'd murder you in your sleep. > > ken perlow ***** ***** There are two major problems with your line of reasoning: 1) you are assuming some kind of universal morality, in that YOU assert that those of use with yuppie-designer brains *DO* have some kind of obligations. Simply put: this point is arguable, and depends entirely on your moral/philosophical background. I am simply pointing this out, and refuse to give my position on the matter of absolute morality, since that would tend to distract you from my main argument that there is no logically testable proof that "ethics" and "morality" exist outside of the human imagination. Unless you make an unsupported claim like "you *ARE* your brother's keeper" there will always be those who prefer to assume they are not. 2) assume my point #1 is INCORRECT. In that case we do have a moral/ethical imperative to succor our fellow man when he is in need. This applies to the unemployed of Amerika, the starving of Africa, the oppressed in Russia, the Chinese peasant who has a bad year, ad infinitum. Essentially, if you are so courageous as to be your brother's keeper, YOU HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE to help EVERYONE that is needy, cold, wet, hungry, poor, oppressed, imprisoned, denied the right to vote, beaten, etc, etc. It is against your previous statement that you "*do* have such obligations" if you are going to decide to only help the poor of Amerika. In fact, people who get so upon their high horse, speaking of the moral duty of yuppie-designer-brained people, yet have the time to talk about it, are obviously failing to fulfill their self-assigned duty. While you wrote those words above, hundreds of people all over the world were suffering from one disorder or another. Why weren't you, oh saviour of humanity, doing something about it ? in short, either you assume that you owe nobody anything, but can occasionally opt to help out, or you MUST assume the burden of all humanity as brothers. I think the first option in this case is the more sensible one. The last person I recall hearing about who tried the second got nailed to a tree, or something like that. Personally, it is your last sentence that I feel is the most sensible. Were it not for the bread and circuses that our tax money provides, the great unwashed would surely bring about the collapse of Amerika, and Usenet, and murder anyone who makes over 25,000$/year in their sleeps. To think of it as "protection money" is not out of the question. Remember the glory that was Rome, and the gawdawful mess that followed. None of this is dogma. I just hope to provide some fuel for thought. Morality is a terrible responsibility, and I have never met anyone who has had the strength to do anything other than TALK about it. Live Free mjr -- Quite a hundred gourds Be careful of pine-needle points Waterfall Music
djo@ptsfd.UUCP (Dan'l Oakes) (10/09/86)
In article <195@gouldsd.UUCP> mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP (Marcus the Ranum) writes: > > There are two major problems with your line of reasoning: > >1) ...you are assuming some kind of universal morality,... >Simply put: this point is arguable, and depends entirely >on your moral/philosophical background. Actually, it is quite possible to derive a system of ethics (though never morals) from sheer pragmatism. >[I] refuse to give my position on the matter of absolute morality, since >that would tend to distract you from my main argument Ah. Thank you, oh Enlightened One, for not confusing our poor mortal brains with what only your Magnificent Mountain of Mentality can truly comprehend. We mortals need protection from that kind of confusion... >2) assume my point #1 is INCORRECT. In that case we do have a moral/ethical >imperative to succor our fellow man when he is in need. >Essentially, if you are so courageous as to be your brother's keeper, YOU >HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE to help EVERYONE that is needy, cold, wet, hungry, >poor, oppressed, imprisoned, denied the right to vote, beaten, etc, etc... > > in short, either you assume that you owe nobody anything, but can >occasionally opt to help out, or you MUST assume the burden of all humanity >as brothers. I think the first option in this case is the more sensible >one. The last person I recall hearing about who tried the second got nailed >to a tree, or something like that. Feh. Category errors abound. An ethical obligation to help does not necessarily entail an obligation to always place that help above all else. In Islam, for example, giving alms to the poor is a moral obligation for any believer who makes more than a bare living wage -- but there is a set formula for how much to give, and you do it in your own city, for your own poor. As for the guy on the tree, he had something to say about neighbors, if I recall. And as for more distant needy, there was something about removing the beam in one's own eye before going after the mote in someone else's. Oh: and this, "The poor you will have always." So much for the Great Society... >Live Free Nice trick, if you can do it. Bums manage pretty well, I believe. The Roach Without Fear "I am a child again -- the other children have a name for me, a name because I stay in and do my -- Hey! Get your damn finger out of my eye!"
ebh@cord.UUCP (10/09/86)
In article <2000@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP writes: >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that >you *do* have such obligations. I was going to mail the following to someone who responded to me, but now it seems to be worth posting... As this discussion continues on the net, I think we'll see some debate on just what "truly in need" really means. Are we talking about 3rd generation welfare families with kids by the dozen? How about the starving in Ethiopia? Or the bankrupt American farmers? Or my mother, who can't afford her medical bills from last year's cancer? Or the <whatever the number is> cancer patients that could all benefit from a cure? I think we all have to decide in our own minds just who is deserving of the money we set aside for the "less fortunate". I can't stand it when some government agency takes my money and gives it to people I don't believe should get it. There are plenty of people that really are in need, and there are plenty of mechanisms (read charities) through which I can help those people. It's not a matter of whether I know personally the beneficiaries of my money. It's a matter of attacking the problems I feel are the most serious. If I'm going to pay for somebody's drugs, don't I have a right to want them dispensed by a doctor and not by a pusher? Self-righteous? Possibly. But that's how I feel. -Ed Horch ihnp4!cord!ebh P.S. to Ken: It's too bad we didn't get a chance to talk more at the net.party...
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) (10/09/86)
-- > ... Essentially, if you > are so courageous as to be your brother's keeper, YOU HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE > to help EVERYONE that is needy, cold, wet, hungry, poor, oppressed, imprisoned, > denied the right to vote, beaten, etc, etc. It is against your previous > statement that you "*do* have such obligations" if you are going to decide > to only help the poor of Amerika. In fact, people who get so upon their > high horse, speaking of the moral duty of yuppie-designer-brained people, > yet have the time to talk about it, are obviously failing to fulfill their > self-assigned duty. While you wrote those words above, hundreds of people > all over the world were suffering from one disorder or another. Why weren't > you, oh saviour of humanity, doing something about it ? ... > > mjr How do you know that I'm not? I'm not a doctor nor a farmer, so my physical presence in underdeveloped areas might not be of much use. It would behoove you, mjr, to study some real moral philosophy. By stating that you, I, and everyone has some set of obligations to others does not mean that we must spend every waking hour nurturing the less fortunate. There are some who do hold this belief, and I am in awe of their courage. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but you can divide most ethical codes into two camps: (1) deontology, which posits a set of absolutes and appropriate behaviors which derive from them; and (2) utilitarianism, which sets out a relativistic algorithm (viz: greatest good for the greatest number) which one adopts behaviors in order to maximize. We of course ignore all flavors of ethical egoism (in a nutshell, "what's good for me is good") as garbage. But even constrained to (1) or (2), we have quite a bit of freedom to decide whom we help and how much. And then, one's moral code is an ideal to live up to. If I ought to be helping *everyone*, then I am not as good or complete a person as I could be if I did so. That's the point. These damned Randists go beyond simply "looking out for ol' number one." After all, we all do that to some degree. But they've raised selfishness to a bloody sacrament. *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 09 Oct 86 [18 Vendemiaire An CXCV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-8042 ** ** ** ** ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!
chris@minnie.UUCP (10/10/86)
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP says: >-- >>chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) adds: >>>Hear hear!!! Where people get the notion that someone has a claim on my >>>wealth only by virtue of being a member of the same society I will never >>>know. >>> >>>I have no problems helping those who really need help, but I refuse to >>>finance the activities of those who have no interest in helping themselves. >> >>I second both motions... >>I still see the same people in the same projects, >>on the same welfare, "help wanted" signs notwithstanding. (BTW, this >>is in a part of the country where one *can* live on minimum wage. At >>one point, my friends said I was crazy for spending $310/month for a >>one-bedroom apartment.) >> >>-Ed Horch > >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that >you *do* have such obligations. So spare me your lookin'-out-for-ol'- >number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. If those unwashed low-lifes >knew how lame you are they'd murder you in your sleep. > Give me a break!!! To quote (in case you have a hard time reading): >>chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) adds: >>>I have no problems helping those who really need help, but I refuse to >>>finance the activities of those who have no interest in helping themselves. Ken, Ken. Are you seriously suggesting that we continue to support people who have no interest in working? I'm not referring to those that are unable for some reason, but those that just don't want to; those that find it easier to collect public dollars than to put in a day's work (much less a week's or a year's work). I'm sorry, Ken, existence alone is not justification enough to be on the dole. If you think otherwise, then you're welcome to pay my 'share' as well. As an aside, how DOES this man come up with these brilliant insights into my character? :-) He must use some crystal ball that we mere mortals haven't access to. > ... your yuppie, designer brains ... > ... your lookin'-out-for-ol'- >number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. ... With all your labelling, Ken, I don't think you could recognize a moral imperative if it punched you in the nose (much less murdered you in your sleep). (Gad! Where is net.flame when you need it?????) >ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS! ^^^^^^ Says it all. -- Chris Grevstad {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!chris ihnp4!nrcvax!chris "Too many notes. There are just simply too many notes."
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (10/10/86)
In article <195@gouldsd.UUCP> mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP (Marcus the Ranum) writes: > in short, either you assume that you owe nobody anything, but can >occasionally opt to help out, or you MUST assume the burden of all humanity >as brothers. I think the first option in this case is the more sensible >one. I read the rest of Marcus' posting carefully, and could find nothing that forced the issue into this either/or framework. It may not be possible to justify any particular ``percentage'' of responsibility (whatever that would mean), but I think we all have dual responsibilities: to our selves, and to our society. Those who put either responsibility above the other have missed the boat, in my opinion. Those who claim that their sole responsibility is to themselves have a cynically damaged concept of reality. You're going to die someday, Marcus, as will I, as will everyone else reading this. What will outlive you is your influence on society, on ``all humanity as brothers.'' In innumerable subtle ways, each of us will leave a trace. How you live your life is important--to yourself, for each of us is important, and to the society you are a part of, *for each of us is important*. Whether you like the idea or not, much of what you are is what society has given you: your language, your knowledge, the institutions you're born in, live in, work in and die in. Individually you only create a fraction of that which is your life. At least I hope so--you don't seem the hermit type. You've talked of economic freeloaders. How about the social freeloaders who give nothing back to the society that has supplied them with so much? > None of this is dogma. I just hope to provide some fuel for thought. >Morality is a terrible responsibility, and I have never met anyone who has >had the strength to do anything other than TALK about it. You must live in awfully small circles! Most people I know have a personal morality, and tend to stick to it, too. >Live Free Certainly! But the question is, live free to what end? >mjr -Ed Hall allegra!sdcrdcf!randvax!edhall edhall@rand-unix.ARPA
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) (10/10/86)
-- > >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > >you *do* have such obligations. [...] > > Okay, Ken. You're on. > > Why not let us in on what _your_ ethical system is that demands this > obligation? I'm not arguing the obligation; I am curious to hear to > your justification. *My* ethical system that demands "this obligation"? You say this as if it had to be some bizarre cultist dogma. I'm a Jew, and my religion specifies 613 obligations in some detail. Some of these are obligations to my family, to my friends, to my community, and to G-d. If you're interested in these duties, all of which derive from Scripture, there are some good translations of Maimonides around. He lived and wrote in the 12th Century, and it's interesting to see how he tried to justify Torah with Aristotle. I am not a very observant Jew--I do not even try to fulfill most of those obligations--and I am an incomplete (or if you prefer, "worse") person for not doing so. *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 10 Oct 86 [19 Vendemiaire An CXCV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-8042 ** ** ** ** ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!
mag@lcuxlm.UUCP (Gray Michael A) (10/10/86)
> The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > "dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > you *do* have such obligations. So spare me your lookin'-out-for-ol'- > number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. If those unwashed low-lifes > knew how lame you are they'd murder you in your sleep. > > ken perlow ***** ***** Ad-hominem attacks + arbitrary assertions != persuasive argument. What are these obligations? Where do they come from? On whose authority? Etc. Mike Gray AT&T Bell Labs
cramer@kontron.UUCP (10/11/86)
> -- > > chris@minnie.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) adds: > > >Hear hear!!! Where people get the notion that someone has a claim on my > > >wealth only by virtue of being a member of the same society I will never > > >know. > > > > > >I have no problems helping those who really need help, but I refuse to > > >finance the activities of those who have no interest in helping themselves. > > > > I second both motions... > > I still see the same people in the same projects, > > on the same welfare, "help wanted" signs notwithstanding. (BTW, this > > is in a part of the country where one *can* live on minimum wage. At > > one point, my friends said I was crazy for spending $310/month for a > > one-bedroom apartment.) > > > > -Ed Horch > > The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > "dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > you *do* have such obligations. So spare me your lookin'-out-for-ol'- > number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. If those unwashed low-lifes > knew how lame you are they'd murder you in your sleep. > > ken perlow ***** ***** Gee, Ken. You mean we are obligated to help people too lazy to work? Why? And I'm glad you admit what low moral caliber the welfare class really is -- willing to murder us in our sleep for disagreeing with your desire to force the rest of us to support them. Clayton E. Cramer
cramer@kontron.UUCP (10/11/86)
> In article <2000@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly/Ken Perlow) writes: > >>[...] > >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > >you *do* have such obligations. [...] > > Okay, Ken. You're on. > > Why not let us in on what _your_ ethical system is that demands this > obligation? I'm not arguing the obligation; I am curious to hear to > your justification. And Ken's ethical system requires the government to send out men with guns to threaten us into compliance. My ethical system doesn't require aggression. So Ken, you LIKE a system based on threats, force, and suppression of political dissent, as our current tax system requires? Clayton E. Cramer
mjranum@gouldsd.UUCP (Marcus the Ranum) (10/11/86)
In article <2017@ihlpa.UUCP>, gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: > -- > > [...hacked] It would behoove > you, mjr, to study some real moral philosophy. By stating that you, I, and > everyone has some set of obligations to others does not mean that we must > spend every waking hour nurturing the less fortunate. There are some who do > hold this belief, and I am in awe of their courage. My *argv was simply that such statements as "we are our brother's keepers" and clarion calls about our "duty to our fellow man" are functionally meaningless. This stems from a moral dilemma I have pondered for some time. To wit: a starving person comes to me on the street and asks for money so she can get her next meal. I give it to her. 3 minutes later another person comes to me and is in equally sad shape, and also asks me for money. If I take the moral stand that I have an absolute duty to these people, I am failing in my duty if I say "sorry". Moral duty, when stated in the general and very forcible terms you originally used in your first posting, is an absolute. If I can help someone, and don't I am WRONG. I really don't see how someone who is claiming that we have an absolute moral duty to help our fellow man can then decide to select the level and the type of obligation we are under. Moral philosophy has never been my strong point, I admit. Generally it has struck me as little more than lots of words that people use to convince themselves that they are nice guys. I have met many people who are very upset about our poor Amerikan bag people, who don't give a flying **** for the poor in Afrika. it is all well and good to love one's fellow man of one's own choosing, but to state it as a moral imperative is taking a lot of weight on your shoulders. >It's a bit of an oversimplification, but you can divide most ethical codes >into two camps: (1)deontology, which posits a set of absolutes and appropriate >behaviors which derive from them; and (2) utilitarianism, which sets out a >relativistic algorithm (viz: greatest good for the greatest number) which one >adopts behaviors in order to maximize. We of course ignore all flavors of >ethical egoism (in a nutshell, "what's good for me is good") as garbage. >But even constrained to (1) or (2), we have quite a bit of freedom to >decide whom we help and how much. Why do you "of course" ignore Eudaemonism ? ("what feels right is right", and the related "what is good for me, etc..") That is a philosophy that has been dear to mankind since the days we crawled out of the mud. Anyhow, I disagree with you that there is such a thing as leeway in any absolute moral system. That's why it's spelled "absolute". If your God says it's right to help your fellow man, it must be wrong not to. The greatest good for the greatest number is an excellent idea, but that was not what I understood you to be talking about when you said that designer-yuppie-brained-people-from-hell-&c had to wake up and understand that they have a duty to their fellow man. "Duty" implies an obligation, as to all absolute moral codes. > >And then, one's moral code is an ideal to live up to. If I ought to be >helping *everyone*, then I am not as good or complete a person as I could >be if I did so. That's the point. These damned Randists go beyond simply >"looking out for ol' number one." After all, we all do that to some >degree. But they've raised selfishness to a bloody sacrament. > What's a Randist ? Again, I feel you contradict yourself. A moral code is not an ideal to live up to. It is a LAW. If you fail it, you have failed yourself. If you choose to accept mankind as your brother, the moment you decide to take a vacation from it, you have violated your moral codes, and whatever punishment you inflict upon yourself is deserved. -- You stupid screcrow ! Soup, the salad, fish and all... Or even worse, without !
jeanne@reed.UUCP (10/13/86)
In article <2021@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) writes:
The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget
"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether
you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got
any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that
you *do* have such obligations. [...]
to which someone responded:
Why not let us in on what _your_ ethical system is that demands this
obligation? I'm not arguing the obligation; I am curious to hear to
your justification.
in response, gadfly says:
*My* ethical system that demands "this obligation"? You say this as if
it had to be some bizarre cultist dogma. I'm a Jew, and my religion
specifies 613 obligations in some detail.[etc]
Correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to imply that anyone with any sense
of ethics in their yuppie, designer brains is a Jew (or at least
acknowledges these 613 specific obligations of which you speak).
The person who responded (and me) is asking not why you feel that *you*
have these obligations, but why you feel that they are self-evident
to anyone WASOEITYDB, and whence comes your right to impose said
obligations by force on one who does not share your view of them.
--
jeanne a. e. devoto | "The mind is an infinite resource...but
...!tektronix!reed!jeanne | only if you don't squander it."
USsnail: 5353 SE 28th #38 |
Portland, OR 97202 | James Hogan, "Voyage From Yesteryear"
mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) (10/14/86)
In article <2021@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Ken Perlow) writes: > > >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > > >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > > >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > > >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > > >you *do* have such obligations. [...] > > > > Okay, Ken. You're on. > > > > Why not let us in on what _your_ ethical system is that demands this > > obligation? I'm not arguing the obligation; I am curious to hear to > > your justification. > > *My* ethical system that demands "this obligation"? You say this as if > it had to be some bizarre cultist dogma. I'm a Jew, and my religion > specifies 613 obligations in some detail. Some of these are obligations > to my family, to my friends, to my community, and to G-d. If you're > interested in these duties, all of which derive from Scripture, there > are some good translations of Maimonides around. [...] > > ken perlow Mr. Perlow misses the boat. The question is not what what ethical philosophy he follows that imposes these obligations on HIM, but what ethical philosophy he follows that imposes these obligations on US. It's perfectly irrelevant to me what Mr. Perlow believes are his own obligations to various people; I merely would like him to state his argument that I (and the rest of society) are similarly bound... As for obligations owed to strangers, my yuppie-designer-brain (if any) recognizes but one: to refrain from unjustified aggression or coercion against fellow humans. Anything more than that is simply gilding the lily. Michael C. Berch ARPA: mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (10/14/86)
> > >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > > >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > > >you *do* have such obligations. [...] > > > > Okay, Ken. You're on. > > > > Why not let us in on what _your_ ethical system is that demands this > > obligation? I'm not arguing the obligation; I am curious to hear to > > your justification. > > *My* ethical system that demands "this obligation"? You say this as if > it had to be some bizarre cultist dogma. I'm a Jew, and my religion > specifies 613 obligations in some detail. Some of these are obligations > to my family, to my friends, to my community, and to G-d. If you're > interested in these duties, all of which derive from Scripture, there > are some good translations of Maimonides around. He lived and wrote in > the 12th Century, and it's interesting to see how he tried to justify > Torah with Aristotle. I am not a very observant Jew--I do not even try > to fulfill most of those obligations--and I am an incomplete (or if you > prefer, "worse") person for not doing so. > > ken perlow ***** ***** 1. You are attempting impose your moral and religous code on everyone else. How would you like it if the majority religious belief system was imposed on you? (There is historical precedent, alas.) 2. By your own admission, "I do not even try to fulfill most of these obligations" yet you are quite willing to require everyone else to obey SOME of the obligations you feel compelled to obey. Can you say "Hypocrite?" But of course, you believe in the welfare state -- you don't have to be intellectually honest. Clayton E. Cramer
boreas@bucsb.bu.edu.UUCP (The Mad Tickle Monster) (10/15/86)
>In article <2021@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Ken Perlow) writes: >> > >The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget >> > >"dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether >> > >you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got >> > >any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that >> > >you *do* have such obligations. [...] My apologies; I don't know any such thing. I don't mind helping, if I can do something for someone in need of help, but I don't see that any- one else in this world has any RIGHT to anything of mine, as you seem to claim. Moreover, considering the uses that my money has been put to in the past, I've quit contributing cash; I've found that it tends to be misused. The incident under 'keywords:' was when I gave a two-dollar bill (they're unlucky :-) to a man on the street collecting for a small, privately-funded school for underprivileged children. I headed into Kenmore to get some dinner at a pizza place; while I was waiting in line, the man dropped in for his own dinner. Guess what he paid for it with? Am I "obligated" to pay for his dinner? In article <20909@styx.UUCP> mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >Mr. Perlow misses the boat. The question is not what what ethical >philosophy he follows that imposes these obligations on HIM, but what >ethical philosophy he follows that imposes these obligations on US. >It's perfectly irrelevant to me what Mr. Perlow believes are his own >obligations to various people; I merely would like him to state his >argument that I (and the rest of society) are similarly bound... Me too. But change the wording a bit: I'd like to see his argument for why he believes I should buy that jerk's dinner. -- +--------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael Justice | | BITNet: cscj0ac@bostonu CSNET: boreas@bucsb.UUCP | | UUCP: ....!harvard!bu-cs!bucsb!boreas | | "Perhaps it was a result of anxiety." -- _Mad_Max_ | | "Space: The Final Front" -- Ronald Reagan | | (well, he COULD have said it. . . .) | +--------------------------------------------------------+
ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) (10/16/86)
>As to the latter, I'll restate my case a bit less flippantly: We all >have obligations to other people and society in general. This is simply >axiomatic. If you don't believe it, I certainly can't force you to, >and I wouldn't want to try. There are, as I have noted previously, a >number of tantalizingly different ethical philosophies--you have quite >a banquet to choose from. I do not proselytize for any particular one. >But if you reject them all, then you're adopting the yuppie credo: >"The one who dies with the most toys wins." And then I really pity you. >Tell me, O ethical egoists, just what do you think life is about anyway? Well, to collect toys, of course. :-) I'd like to know, though, what makes it axiomatic that we have obligations to other people and society in general? I mean, in an absolute sense, one can not avoid some obligations to society. After all, it's society that allows us to procure all of those toys. But who decides what obligations I have to others? You? In other words, just who are you quoting as an absolute authority on what I owe my fellow man? So, you give 50% of your paycheck to the poor, and I toss my change into the jar marked Jerry's Kids. The difference is one of degree, not kind. Who decides how much of my money I owe to others? Are we playing another game? "I give a higher percentage of my earnings to the unwashed poor than you" and "whomever dies leaving the largest sum to charity wins". Let's say we're all (starting tomorrow) going to donate everything above subsistance level to charity. Now,,,, how do you define subsistance level? Sure, that means shelter and enough food to keep alive, but you can do that by living in a lean-to and robbing anthills. What Joe Public donates to the unfortunate must be up to the individual parting with the cash. You can appeal to his morals, but you may find that he resents you forcing him to cough up the loot. I suspect that as the amount of cash taken from you increased, you would reach a point where you'd resent it too. Ron -- -- Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc -or- ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: "If you are seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it."
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (10/16/86)
-- > > *My* ethical system that demands "this obligation"? You say this as if > > it had to be some bizarre cultist dogma. I'm a Jew, and my religion > > specifies 613 obligations in some detail... > > > > ken perlow ***** ***** > > 1. You are attempting impose your moral and religous code on everyone > else. How would you like it if the majority religious belief system was > imposed on you? (There is historical precedent, alas.) > > 2. By your own admission, "I do not even try to fulfill most of these > obligations" yet you are quite willing to require everyone else to obey > SOME of the obligations you feel compelled to obey. Can you say "Hypocrite?" > But of course, you believe in the welfare state -- you don't have to be > intellectually honest. > > Clayton E. Cramer Oh, poppycock, Clayton. I was responding to a question about where my own personal beliefs came from. I never maintained that it was a system anybody else should follow. Indeed, Judaism finds proselytizing offensive. But the point, guy, is that if a person has any morals at all--deontological, utilitarian, whatever--no matter how you cut it, selfishness comes out at best amoral. And so, your vacuous, pointy-headed accusations of "hypocrisy" and "welfare-statism" are just self-righteous attempts to bait me. They worked, though. *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 16 Oct 86 [25 Vendemiaire An CXCV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-8042 ** ** ** ** ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!
gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (10/16/86)
-- > >Mr. Perlow misses the boat. The question is not what what ethical > >philosophy he follows that imposes these obligations on HIM, but what > >ethical philosophy he follows that imposes these obligations on US. > >It's perfectly irrelevant to me what Mr. Perlow believes are his own > >obligations to various people; I merely would like him to state his > >argument that I (and the rest of society) are similarly bound... > > Me too. But change the wording a bit: I'd like to see his argument for > why he believes I should buy that jerk's dinner. Sigh. Alas, the universality of inter-personal obligation is axiomatic. To me, and fortunately, to a lot of other people. And fortunately to you, too, unless you've never personally profitted from somebody else's kindness. (Insert halo here. No, that's too bright. OK, a little bit to the left--that's it.) But I have a question for those of you to whom egoism and rationalism are the alpha and omega: What's life about, anyway? *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 16 Oct 86 [25 Vendemiaire An CXCV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-8042 ** ** ** ** ihnp4!ihlpa!gadfly *** *** <== NOTE NEW ADDRESS!
james@reality1.UUCP (james) (10/20/86)
In article <2000@ihlpa.UUCP>, gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: > The question is not whether these shiftless and lazy (didn't you forget > "dirty"?) folks have a claim on your wealth. The question is whether > you have obligations to people you don't even know. If you've got > any semblance of ethics in your yuppie, designer brains you know that > you *do* have such obligations. So spare me your lookin'-out-for-ol'- > number-one pseudo-moral pseudo-outrage. If those unwashed low-lifes > knew how lame you are they'd murder you in your sleep. Turn the question around and look at it this way: The question is really do shiftless and lazy (optionally "dirty" :-) ) people have a claim on my wealth, such as it is? I think not. They have no right to presume that if they chose not to work, someone will take away my money and give it to them. Were these people to actually have to justify themselves to the individuals they were asking for money, I expect we would have fewer people unemployed. I currently have two friends who are unemployed. One dropped out of school a year ago and has been without a job for two months (he quit his last job because he didn't like working at a bank). The other has a BS in EE and was laid off three months ago or so, and for whatever reason hasn't found an acceptable job yet. Neither is on welfare yet, but it is difficult for me to follow the discussions of welfare programs without thinking of the two cases of unemployed people I am familiar with. -- James R. Van Artsdalen ...!ut-ngp!utastro!osi3b2!james "Live Free or Die"
dianeh@ism780c.UUCP (10/21/86)
In article <2067@ihlpa.UUCP> gadfly@ihlpa.UUCP (Gadfly) writes: >But I have a question for those of you to whom >egoism and rationalism are the alpha and omega: What's life about, anyway? > >ken perlow ***** ***** But, Ken, people who really do believe that "egoism and rationalism are the alpha and omega", have already answered that question... Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. Santa Monica, CA {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!hplabs!sdcrdcf!ism780c!dianeh "Play it from the heart..."