kolling@magic.ARPA (01/21/85)
>> The ethics of tormenting cats >> with water pistols I will refrain from commenting on. >You're the one who added the word "tormenting"... The original suggestion came from someone who recommended shooting cats with water pistols as "great fun", as I recall. I don't view making a cat uncomfortable as "fun". > 2. The effect of either spraying or scolding is to startle the > cat, and the psychological effect of either is about the same: > nil... Scolding is verbal. Shooting with a water pistol is physical violence. > 3. Water is harmless to the cat. On the other hand, cats have > VERY sensitive ears, and careless scolding when you're angry about > something can be loud enough to be painful to the cat. Water is not harmless, ref previous messages. I said scolding, not shouting. It sounds like you're envisioning someone in a fit of temper screaming at a cowering cat. Try envisioning someone saying, "No, no", in a quiet, disapproving tone of voice, like civilized folks use. > 4. Squirting causes the cat to associate the undesired activity > with an unpleasant result, but not necessarily (or strongly) with > you. Scolding and physically removing the cat, while sometimes the > best or only thing you can do, has the adverse side effect of > making the cat associate the unpleasantness with you, and may have > a bad effect on the cat's temperament in general or affection > toward you. My cats are certainly smart enough so that they'd know where the water came from. I've never had a cat "turn mean", probably because I don't carry on to the entremes you seem to envision in dealing with cats. >Please don't inflict your ethical judgments on other people, especially by >innuendo, if you don't know anything about the issue. I sure will, if I think they're about to cause unnecessary discomfort or worse to an animal. As for innuendo, I thought my opinion was pretty obvious.....
archiel@hercules.UUCP (Archie Lachner) (01/23/85)
> Scolding is verbal. Shooting with a water pistol is physical violence. Using a fire hose on a cat would be violent. Spraying with a few squirts from a bottle is not. A little water is not going to hurt, although I wouldn't recommend filling up the ears. Besides, cats get wet when you bathe them. We do it for flea control when necessary. Come on, get real already. > >Please don't inflict your ethical judgments on other people, especially by > >innuendo, if you don't know anything about the issue. > > I sure will, if I think they're about to cause unnecessary discomfort or > worse to an animal. As for innuendo, I thought my opinion was pretty > obvious..... Think what you want, but from what I see on the net and my own experience, you're way off base on this one. Our cats known right from wrong to some extent, but still do anything they can get away with at times. Our use of the water bottle hasn't affected their attitudes towards us; they're still as affectionate as ever. You're entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is. I have heard of no factual basis to support it. Try calling the SPCA to complain about water-bottle cat abuse, if you can stand to get laughed at. -- Archie Lachner Logic Design Systems Division Tektronix, Inc. uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!archiel CSnet: archiel@tek ARPAnet: archiel.tek@csnet-relay
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (01/25/85)
Let me see if I can sort out some of the squirt-vs-shout difficulty. I seem not to have gotten thru on the previous try... > Scolding is verbal. Shooting with a water pistol is physical violence. Too bad "squirting with a sprayer" has to be transmogrified to use "shooting" and "pistol". It improves the emotional content, of course, but contributes nothing to the discussion...and the phrase "violence" is present to add inflammatory effect. It is physical ACTION. Consider that scolding is often (not always) accompanied by motion toward the cat, which is regarded as a challenge (first stage of attack). Consider that the scolding must be in an unusual tone of voice or it won't get any attention. > > 3. Water is harmless to the cat. On the other hand, cats have > > VERY sensitive ears, and careless scolding... > Water is not harmless, ref previous messages. I said scolding, not > shouting. It sounds like you're envisioning someone in a fit of temper > screaming at a cowering cat. Try envisioning someone saying, "No, no", in > a quiet, disapproving tone of voice, like civilized folks use. (Take the innuendo about who's civilized and stuff it alongside your misconception of physical violence. Sorry, but I'm not good at taking a combination of misinformation and indirect insults. I care more about the cats than about the person to whom I'm replying.) The objective is to find a means of discipline which won't cause harm even if one DOES become frustrated/angry with the cat. Water IS harmless unless you force it into the cat's eyes or ears--any method of discipline can be abused. Moreover, water IS a recommended means of discipline. > > 4. Squirting causes the cat to associate the undesired activity > > with an unpleasant result, but not necessarily (or strongly) with > > you... > > My cats are certainly smart enough so that they'd know where the water came > from. I've never had a cat "turn mean", probably because I don't carry > on to the entremes you seem to envision in dealing with cats. More nasty innuendo. You don't know me, nor do you know any of our cats. I haven't had a cat "turn mean" either. We don't carry on to extremes, and we've successfully raised a LOT of cats. I've seen a lot of show cats of various breeds, and I've had a chance to observe how factors such as breed and owner training affect the cat's disposition. (And, although I'm only speaking for myself here, I'm also drawing on the experience of my wife, who's been a highly respected professional breeder and cat judge for many years.) It is possible to make the cat associate squirting with you instead of a mostly unknown source, but you have to work at it. Cats are not that smart per se, but they're good at picking up cues from their owners. Most longhair breeds are pretty docile and easy to train. However, if you've never seen a cat turn mean, or have a tendency to a mean streak, get some experience with Korats or Russian Blues. They tend to be temperamental, and a little mistake in training can create a real headache. If you want a challenge for training, try Abyssinians. They're friendly almost to a fault, but they're about the most active and inquisitive cats you'll ever find--and they tend to like water. The squirt bottle works nonetheless. > >Please don't inflict your ethical judgments on other people, especially by > >innuendo, if you don't know anything about the issue. > > I sure will, if I think they're about to cause unnecessary discomfort or > worse to an animal. As for innuendo, I thought my opinion was pretty > obvious..... ...From the beginning of the original posting: > >> The ethics of tormenting cats > >> with water pistols I will refrain from commenting on. That's the innuendo. You seem determined to inflict your opinions on others even though, as I have tried to point out, they are substantially incorrect. You claim to be concerned about the welfare of cats, but you seem more interested in an emotional defense of your opinions. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Keep your day job 'til your night job pays.
eu.kvp@dukee.UUCP (01/26/85)
> Scolding is verbal. Shooting with a water pistol is physical violence. > > > 3. Water is harmless to the cat. On the other hand, cats have > > VERY sensitive ears, and careless scolding when you're angry about > > something can be loud enough to be painful to the cat. > > Water is not harmless, ref previous messages. I said scolding, not > shouting. It sounds like you're envisioning someone in a fit of temper > screaming at a cowering cat. Try envisioning someone saying, "No, no", in > a quiet, disapproving tone of voice, like civilized folks use. > > >Please don't inflict your ethical judgments on other people, especially by > >innuendo, if you don't know anything about the issue. > > I sure will, if I think they're about to cause unnecessary discomfort or > worse to an animal. As for innuendo, I thought my opinion was pretty > obvious..... > *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** To whom it may concern: You know, I'm getting sick and tired of this debate as to whether or not spraying cats with water is harmful to them or not. Shall we call a truce? I thought not. So, as the owner of two (very well-trained) cats and the daughter of a family with four, I'd like to put my two cents in. Number one: you should really assume that the people who care enough to debate about this issue also care enough about their cats that they are not going to intentionally hurt them. I.e., they should not be so stupid that they will hurt the cats! Secondly, from personal experience, almost any cat will "laugh" at you behind your back if you tell it "No" in a "reasonable" tone of voice -- if he's stopped anything, it's probably because you're looming over him while speaking in this reasonable tone. As per spraying the cats with water, remember that almost everyone has talked about spraying with a plant mister, for heaven's sake. Just how painful could that be to a cat?! And, if you accompany the spraying with a "No," he also learns to associate the water with "No," thus preventing you from having to spray him many more times. Now, please, stop judging each other! We all have our ways of raising our animals, and as long as we exercise a modicum of intelligence, we should all do a good job. When will this debate stop? Kathy Van Putte @ Duke University Engineering