slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (07/16/85)
**Choke on this, filthy lineeater** >How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? >Larry Roybal Check with your vet. Different vets have different times that they prefer. Our vet goes for 6 months. >>When it's dead! Seriously, I can think of nothing crueler to >>do to a cat (well, maybe a FEW things). And why do you believe that it is cruel? The operation is no more cruel than spaying or neutering. Vets do use anesthetic, you know :-). The cats are perfectly able to climb, as they have their back claws. And I can testify, from the experience of trying to restrain a spooked declawed cat, that they can also defend themselves QUITE WELL with teeth and back claws alone. And I feed my cats enough that they do not need to hunt to eat. (As a matter of fact, I have seen a declawed cat catch a mouse, so it is still possible for them to catch food, if needed.) >>With care and diligence, >>I feel ANY cat can be trained to use a scratching post, and ONLY >>a scratching post. I have two cats, both indoors, who have never >>harmed a single piece of furniture or drapes. >>Scott We have 5 cats. They spend probably 30% of their time outside. Three of them were kittens of one of the two older cats, and so were "in training" to be sociable housemates at the same time. Since we work during the day, and live in a good-sized house, there is no way that we could watch all kittens all of the time in order to train them. I have never had a cat show any interest in a scratching post (and I have tried, with "care and diligence"). But climbing the drapes was one of the first things our 3 smaller kittens discovered. Declawing a cat beats not doing so, then discovering that the cat simply cannot be kept indoors, and having to give it up. Also, there are apartments which will not take cats unless they are declawed. I recommend it, especially if you have several cats. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Send lawyers, guns, and money... -Warren Zevon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) (07/16/85)
[...some comments about having cats declawed...] > And why do you believe that it is cruel? Fine. I'll be right over with my Doctor and we'll remove your fingernails. Don't worry, though; he'll use plenty of anasthetic. > The operation is no more cruel than spaying or neutering. This is probably true, but I know of no instance where anyone has trained a cat NOT to have kittens, or spray smelly urine all over the house. > The cats are perfectly able to climb, as they have > their back claws. According to vets, scratching is one of the best, and the most natural exercises for the cat. Now, unless you can get the cat to stand on its head to use the back claws, you've removed (sic) this option. > And I can testify, from the experience of trying to restrain > a spooked declawed cat, that they can also defend themselves > QUITE WELL with teeth and back claws alone. But what about other cats, or larger mammals? I don't know for sure if a declawed cat is in any REAL danger, but I do know the way they kill an opponent is by GRASPING with the front claws, and gutting with the back ones. A declawed cat can't "get a grip". > Since we work during the day, and live in a good-sized house, > there is no way that we could watch all kittens all of the time > in order to train them. I have never had a cat show any interest > in a scratching post (and I have tried, with "care and diligence"). I was hardly ever home with my two. Perhaps we just have different training methods (and obviously different cats--that CAN make a difference). I used a plant spritzer to spray them with water each time I caught them "attempting" something. No warning, just water--they soon began to associate the spray with the "object of their desire". As for the post, I recommend denim material, and spray it with catnip extract. > But climbing the drapes was one of the first things our 3 smaller > kittens discovered. Actually, the first thing both my kittens discovered was my legs :-). Seriously, while there are always going to be cases where the cat is untrainable, I feel the best thing is to leave them to their claws. > Sue Brezden Scott Berry
clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (07/17/85)
In article <3253@drutx.UUCP> slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >And why do you believe that it is cruel? The operation is no more >cruel than spaying or neutering. Vets do use anesthetic, you >know :-). I was wondering, has anybody noticed that declawed cats are more likely to bite when you're just trying to be friendly? It's somewhat startling to have a cat come up to you begging for stroking, you oblige, and then it bites you. It's only happened to me with declawed cats. Some of my friends don't have their cats declawed precisely because of this - the cat ends up much more likely to use their other sharp pointy objects on you. -- Chris Lewis, UUCP: {allegra, linus, ihnp4}!utzoo!mnetor!clewis BELL: (416)-475-8980 ext. 321
karen@randvax.UUCP (Karen Isaacson) (07/20/85)
> Seriously, while there are always going to be cases where the cat is > untrainable, I feel the best thing is to leave them to their claws. > Scott Berry Let me second this. My vet refuses to declaw cats unless it has reached the point where either the claws go or the cat goes. If mine had refused to learn, I would have tossed them out during the day to take their chances with cars & dogs rather than declaw them. (Probably that would be the cats' choice if I could ask them!) I have had all my cats neutered and although they come home from the vet a little, shall we say, under the weather, they have not been in pain. On the other hand, cats I have seen that have been recently declawed literally scream with agony. I hope the person contemplating declawing their (nice genderless pronoun - see net.women) cats will instead try to find them a new home with people who love cats rather than consider them part of the interior decoration scheme. Sorry if this sounds like a flame - I believe declawing to be incredibly cruel. -- Karen Isaacson decvax!randvax!karen karen@rand-unix.arpa
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (07/22/85)
>Some veterinarians actually feel that declwaed cats undergo changes in >their personality, often becoming defensive and vicious because the >cats have lost their main defense. I saw no changes with the current crop of cats we have. I did see a personality change with one we had several years ago. He was a mean, antisocial cat, who was absolutely terrified of the outdoors. We had him declawed at the ripe old age of 6 for two reasons. First, the place to which we were moving required declawing. Second, it was almost impossible to hold him, as he would claw while kneading your lap. He also did a lot of scratching. I was never able to interest him in a post. We moved 500 miles and had him declawed within the same 2 weeks. I felt bad about it, assuming that he would be REALLY weird now. Instead, he straighted up--became a loving, quiet, outdoor-loving cat. That was the first cat I ever had declawed, and I was very pleased. I had not wanted to do it in the first place, having listened to the anti-declawing side for years. Afterwards, I realized how little pain was involved, and how much nicer it is to have a declawed cat around. Two of our cats since came to us declawed. They are very normal, and not at all vicious. The three kittens came next, and we had them declawed because we could not get them interested in a post, nor watch them all the time. They also are normal, loving cats. I had many cats before that, none declawed, and saw more vicious behaviour in them than in our current set. If declawing causes such behaviour, then I sure haven't seen it! >>I have had all my >>cats neutered and although they come home from the vet a little, shall >>we say, under the weather, they have not been in pain. I think you are trying to kid yourself. Cats that are acting "under the weather" are probably in pain. You are saying, "I could not cause my pet pain, therefore neutering is not painful." It is. Our cat that was spayed was in pain for a week, (she could not jump into a high chair, for instance, a good indication) and the ones that were neutered were in pain for a few days. Cats don't have to yowl to show pain. (Although our spayed cat did--especially at night.) (Note, this is not a remark against spaying and neutering. Pain is a part of life, and spaying and neutering are necessary to prevent more pain--i.e. the death and pain of kittens that cannot be supported.) >>On the other >>hand, cats I have seen that have been recently declawed literally >>scream with agony. What vet did the declawing? My advice is to change vets. None of our cats were in any visible pain after declawing, except for the first day. By "visible pain" I mean what you meant by "under the weather". By the second day they were leaping around, and going outside again. In other words, there was less pain for them than with neutering, and a LOT less than with spaying. By the way, the 6-year old cat showed even less discomfort, something which surprised me. We all cause some pain in others, I'm afraid. Sometimes it is worth it. I think, after having cats both with claws and not, that declawing can indeed be worth it. You may certainly disagree--I would not have believed it 5 years ago. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jml@drutx.UUCP (LeonJM) (07/23/85)
Our cat is not declawed and has never had any inclination to do harm to anything except the scratching post and a couple of corners (potential mouse holes). If a cat is to be let outside for any length of time, unwatched, it should not be declawed. Declawed cats may be able to defend themselves purrfectly fine against humans, but are no match for other cats with claws. John Leon AT&T ISL Denver ihnp4!drutx!jml