ljr@drutx.UUCP (RoybalL) (07/15/85)
How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? Thanks Larry Roybal ihnp4!drutx!ljr
scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) (07/15/85)
>How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? >Larry Roybal When it's dead! Seriously, I can think of nothing crueler to do to a cat (well, maybe a FEW things). With care and diligence, I feel ANY cat can be trained to use a scratching post, and ONLY a scratching post. I have two cats, both indoors, who have never harmed a single piece of furniture or drapes. Scott
jla@inuxd.UUCP (Joyce Andrews) (07/16/85)
> How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? > > Thanks > Larry Roybal > ihnp4!drutx!ljr My veterinarian says as young as possible, before the blood supply is extensive. I've seen them done at 7 weeks. I've also seen a 7-weeek-old kitten die from anesthesia. I guess you've got a little more risk when they are young, but a lot less blood loss. Joyce Andrews ihnp4!inuxd!jla
doug@prime.UUCP (Douglas A. Hamilton) (07/16/85)
> How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? > > Thanks > Larry Roybal > ihnp4!drutx!ljr Dead. Seriously, please don't do this to your poor little kitty. If you do, the cat is defenseless and MUST be kept indoors all the time. In any event, the problem you presumably are worried about, i.e., sharpening claws on furniture can be cured more easily than you might expect. Get your cat a couple good-sized boards of rough-sawed cedar or other soft wood and leave them in places where you don't mind getting some wood chips to be cleaned up periodically. If you find the cat scratching somewhere else, simply pick him up, carry him over and set him on his board. Avoid hitting the cat or otherwise "disciplining" the cat or you'll find he'll scratch where you don't want simply to "get back at you." I've had a number of cats (and expensive furniture) for years and no problems. Regards and Good Luck. -- Douglas Hamilton Prime Computer,Inc. 617-626-1700 x3956 Video Products Group 492 Old Connecticut Path Framingham, MA 10701 {seismo,ihnp4,allegra,ut-sally}!harvard!prime!doug
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (07/16/85)
>According to vets, scratching is one of the best, and the most natural >exercises for the cat. Now, unless you can get the cat to stand on >its head to use the back claws, you've removed (sic) this option. > ... >As for the post, I recommend denim material, and >spray it with catnip extract. >Scott Berry Our declawed cats do scratch. They can do no damage, but they love to stretch out and "rip" the heck out of the stereo speakers. That may be because they were declawed after they learned to scratch. I wonder if cats declawed at 7 weeks would do that. They also do a lot of running outside, and tree climbing. That is a good point--cats do need exercise. I wouldn't like to raise a cat again in an apartment where they couldn't get out--although I have done so in the past. In that case, you might want to leave them their claws and get a BIG post. Also something to climb on. Also try to play with them often. Denim and catnip are a good idea. Perhaps my previous cats that weren't interested just didn't like the post. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Send lawyers, guns, and money... -Warren Zevon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cam@aluxe.UUCP (MASCAVAGE) (07/17/85)
> How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? > > Thanks > Larry Roybal > ihnp4!drutx!ljr Declawing is very inhumane practice. I believe it should only be considered in the most extreme cases. It is in actuallity amputation since the first joint of the toes are removed - I guess declawing doesn't sound as bad as amputation. This practice may be detrimental to your cat's well being; the stretching/scratching ritual is an instinct that is important as exercise as well as a pseudo-emotional need. Try a cork scratching post, and teach the cat what it is for by laying it down, putting the cat on it, and encouraging it to scratch by stroking it's back (patience please). Also, if your feline is still a kitten, they do calm down a bit, and know is the time to teach them their territory. CAM
sja@rduxb.UUCP (Sam J. Anastasio) (07/17/85)
the stretching/scratching ritual is an > instinct that is important as exercise as well as a pseudo-emotional > need. Try a cork scratching post, and teach the cat what it is for We had our kitten declawed at 6 months and she led a very happy 18 year lifespan. She didn't seem to remember that she even had front claws. She also "INSTINCTIVELY" exercised her front paws on the furniture in scratching motions quite often. Thereby satisfying her "pseudo-emotional needs" quite nicely, thank you. The scratching instinct is not dependent on the presence of claws.
scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) (07/17/85)
One question on exercising without claws: While a cat may "go through the motions" on a piece of furniture, or whatever, it doesn't get the same exercise (this may not be necessarily bad). Can anyone out there, by MERELY PLACING their hands on a horizontal bar (no grasping), do pull-ups? I thought not. Scott
smithson@calma.uucp (Brian Smithson) (07/18/85)
> How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? > > Thanks > Larry Roybal > ihnp4!drutx!ljr About as old, in cat years, as people need to be to have their fingernails removed (sorry about that...). Actually, I have two strictly-indoor cats and one strictly-outdoor cat and here's what I do: I leave the outdoor cat's claws alone, since they are her front line of defense out there. The indoor cats, however, tend to shred everything they can, and refuse to use a scratching post, so I trim their front claws every couple of weeks using a large fingernail cutter (the type which looks somewhat like diagonal wire cutters with a curved cutting edge). The hind claws never do any damage, and the trimmed front claws keep them from snagging or ripping anything, yet they can still use them for traction on the carpet. I really can't see any need to have them declawed. -- -Brian Smithson Calma Company ucbvax!calma!smithson calma!smithson@ucbvax.ARPA "Calma is a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Electric" "UNIX is a trademark of AT&T Bell Laboratories" "Your's is my heart alone" "Coke, nonetheless, isn't it"
plw@mgwess.UUCP (Pete Wilson) (07/18/85)
In article <555@hou2g.UUCP> scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) writes: >One question on exercising without claws: > >While a cat may "go through the motions" on >a piece of furniture, or whatever, it doesn't >get the same exercise (this may not be necessarily >bad). Cats paws are also multi-jointed. My (declawed) cats hook their pads on any convenient edge and pull away at it. The grip is strong enough that they have to extend the back claws to keep from sliding. >Can anyone out there, by MERELY PLACING their >hands on a horizontal bar (no grasping), do pull-ups? > >I thought not. > > Scott Tell me, do your fingernails retract when you're not using them? I thought not. Cats are NOT people! In other articles, the question of protection and hunting without front claws has come up. The front claws are used mainly as a warning device to other animals which the cat doesn't like. They do little life-threatening damage. A cat kills with it's teeth and back claws. As to being able to hang on to prey without front claws, a cat can, and does, hang on very nicely by a 'hugging' maneuver of the front legs (arms, if you insist on anthropomorphizing). Anecdotes: I have a cat that I can lift off the floor by having him hook his front paws over my fingers. I do nothing to help him hang on and I can sure feel the grip he uses! My youngest female cat can attest to the above statements about hunting and protection. Three of the other cats (1 female and 2 males) manage to inflict many wounds on her by holding her down and biting on her head. For some reason, she won't swipe at them with her paws, but prefers to try and run away instead. The oldest (and grouchiest) female manages to keep the other cats in fear most of the time because of the whallop she packs with a right cross to the head. The two males go out of their way to go around her because of the brain-rattling punches she has given them in the past. All five of my cats don't seem to be in the least concerned they have no front claws. They get plenty of exercise, manage to fight and wrestle with each other, chase (and catch) flies, ants, other assorted bugs and insects, and birds, all without the benefit of their 'finger- nails'.
scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) (07/18/85)
->> Can anyone out there, by MERELY PLACING their
->> hands on a horizontal bar (no grasping), do pull-ups?
->>
->> I thought not.
->>
->> Scott
-> Tell me, do your fingernails retract when you're not using them?
-> I thought not. Cats are NOT people!
What does this have to do with my above quote? My point was that
cats use their claws to "hold onto" a post. People use their fingers.
It's great that your cats don't seem to need their claws to get
the proper exercise. They've apparantly gotten used to their "handicap".
-> I have a cat that I can lift off the floor by having him hook his
-> front paws over my fingers. I do nothing to help him hang on and
-> I can sure feel the grip he uses!
This is great! (How much does he weigh?)
-> My youngest female cat can attest to the above statements about
-> hunting and protection. Three of the other cats (1 female and 2 males)
-> manage to inflict many wounds on her by holding her down and biting on
^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^
-> her head. For some reason, she won't swipe at them with her paws, but
-> prefers to try and run away instead.
Maybe she won't swipe because without claws the action is ineffective?
Sounds like you're proving MY point.
-> The oldest (and grouchiest) female manages to keep the other cats in
-> fear most of the time because of the whallop she packs with a right
-> cross to the head. The two males go out of their way to go around her
-> because of the brain-rattling punches she has given them in the past.
Maybe if they had claws they could overcome her strength advantage.
-> All five of my cats don't seem to be in the least concerned they have
-> no front claws.
I disagree. You indicate above that some of your cats beat up on
others which have little or no *effective* defense.
-> wrestle with each other, chase (and catch) flies, ants, other assorted
-> bugs and insects, and birds, all without the benefit of their 'finger-
-> nails'.
To be a little extreme, I could say that plenty of animals (us included)
get along OK with just 3 extremities. Does that mean it's alright?
Scottcam@aluxe.UUCP (MASCAVAGE) (07/18/85)
> ON DECLAWED CATS: > > -> wrestle with each other, chase (and catch) flies, ants, other assorted > -> bugs and insects, and birds, all without the benefit of their 'finger- > -> nails'. > > To be a little extreme, I could say that plenty of animals (us included) > get along OK with just 3 extremities. Does that mean it's alright? > > Scott Well put, Scott! CAM
plw@mgwess.UUCP (Pete Wilson) (07/19/85)
Scott points out that the smaller cats could defend themselves better from the other cats if they had their claws. (I sent him mail explaining in more detail why I disagreed.) I just don't see any difference between declawing and neutering (yes, I know that neutering deals with the reproductive system and declawing deals with another area). There are NO adverse effects by having a cat's front claws removed. Either way, the larger or more aggressive cats will 'pick on' the smaller or less aggressive cats, REGARDLESS if they have claws or not. The point of the anecdotes was to show that cats can do normal cat-stuff (hunt, fight, etc) just as well without front claws. Pete Wilson AT&T IS CGBS Montgomery Works ..!ihnp4!mgnetp!mgwess!plw <If life begins at 40, what is it that ends at 39?>
ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (07/19/85)
> One question on exercising without claws: > > While a cat may "go through the motions" on > a piece of furniture, or whatever, it doesn't > get the same exercise (this may not be necessarily > bad). > > Can anyone out there, by MERELY PLACING their > hands on a horizontal bar (no grasping), do pull-ups? > > I thought not. > > Scott My parents declawed cat absolutely destroyed a couple of wicker wastebaskets by simply pawing them to death. She seemed to get plenty of destructive excersise. My cats go outside, so they're keeping their claws (though I wish the vinyl couch was self-healing) Ariel (Ouch! Un-claw me you feline monstrosity!) Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels
sja@rduxb.UUCP (Sam J. Anastasio) (07/19/85)
SHITTILY PUT, scott
SAMlizv@tektools.UUCP (Liz Vaughan) (07/19/85)
>>How old must a cat be befor it can be declawed? >When it's dead! Seriously, I can think of nothing crueler to >do to a cat (well, maybe a FEW things). With care and diligence, >I feel ANY cat can be trained to use a scratching post, and ONLY >a scratching post. I have two cats, both indoors, who have never >harmed a single piece of furniture or drapes. I agree!!! What if your mutilated cat got lost outside? Even when cornered by a pack of dogs, wildebeestes etc, a claws-intact cat is still a pretty formidable enemy. A cat without its claws is pretty much defenseless: it can't protect itself, can't climb trees easily to escape, and can't hunt for anything to eat. You may say "my cat never goes outside", but accidents can happen, and a clawed cat stands a much better chance of coming home safe and sound. Why do people EVER declaw their cats? (other than vets who do it to make $$?) I'd like to hear some reasons for this. Liz Vaughan ...tektronix!tektools!lizv
jhs@druri.UUCP (ShoreJ) (07/19/85)
Very Brief Editorial: > From: sja@rduxb.UUCP (Sam J. Anastasio) > > SHITTILY PUT, scott > > SAM Well, Sam, thanks for so quickly reducing the declawing discussion to the juvenile/scatalogical. However, in the future, please send offensive replies directly to the subject of your attack or to net.flame if you're into that. Now that the discussion has degenerated from the articulate to the emotional to the juvenile, why don't we ALL drop this topic for a while? Each net has its own pet (sorry about that!) controversies; this one has neutering and declawing, with discussions surfacing once or twice a year. Fine. Let it rest for now. Comments or flames can be sent to: Jeff Shore @ ..!ihnp4!druri!jhs "Ackpht!"
dsc@daemon.UUCP (David S. Comay) (07/20/85)
In article <14930@mgwess.UUCP> plw@mgwess.UUCP (Wilson,Pete,PL) writes: >I just don't see any difference between declawing and neutering >(yes, I know that neutering deals with the reproductive system and >declawing deals with another area). There are NO adverse effects by >having a cat's front claws removed. Either way, the larger or more >aggressive cats will 'pick on' the smaller or less aggressive cats, >REGARDLESS if they have claws or not. The point of the anecdotes was >to show that cats can do normal cat-stuff (hunt, fight, etc) just as >well without front claws. According to a number of books I have read and veterinarians I have talked with, there can be MANY adverse effects by declawing a cat. Since the operation actually is ten amputations, the cat must be under anesthetic for quite some time, which can be dangerous. In addition, there are often complications after the operation. The paws can hemorrhage or gangrene can set in. Some veterinarians actually feel that declwaed cats undergo changes in their personality, often becoming defensive and vicious because the cats have lost their main defense. Yes, cats use their front claws as their main defense, not their teeth or back claws. I think cat owners would be wise to talk to several vets before making a decision about declawing (or any other operation.) Note, I did say several ... it is always good to get a couple opinions. David
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (07/21/85)
>The indoor cats, however, tend to shred everything they can, and refuse to >use a scratching post, so I trim their front claws every couple of weeks >using a large fingernail cutter (the type which looks somewhat like diagonal >wire cutters with a curved cutting edge). The hind claws never do any >damage, and the trimmed front claws keep them from snagging or ripping >anything, yet they can still use them for traction on the carpet. > -Brian Smithson Sounds like a good way to do it. I have two questions, though. One: I have heard that cats whose claws are trimmed will scratch MORE--in order to resharpen the trimmed claws. Is this true, or just an old-wives tale. (and who are those old wives who are always telling tales, anyway? :-)) Two: How do you keep them quiet for this? They must be very calm cats. -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
peter@kitty.UUCP (Peter DaSilva) (07/26/85)
> There are NO adverse effects by > having a cat's front claws removed. NO adverse effects? Either you're full of it or you're letting your rhetoric get away from you. There are several minor adverse effects in any surgery, and there are potentailly some major ones. Tru, not all cats that are declawed end up cripples. Not even most. It's still quite a risk you're taking when you declaw.
features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) (07/26/85)
> from -Brian Smithson ucbvax!calma!smithson > The indoor cats, however, tend to shred everything they can, and refuse to > use a scratching post, so I trim their front claws every couple of weeks > using a large fingernail cutter (the type which looks somewhat like diagonal > wire cutters with a curved cutting edge). The hind claws never do any > damage, and the trimmed front claws keep them from snagging or ripping > anything, yet they can still use them for traction on the carpet. > I find it useful to trim both front and hind claws. While the back ones don't grow as quickly as the front, they do grow and can get long enough to inadvertantly scratch someone. -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features
smithson@calma.uucp (Brian Smithson) (08/01/85)
> >The indoor cats, however, tend to shred everything they can, and refuse to > >use a scratching post, so I trim their front claws every couple of weeks > >using a large fingernail cutter (the type which looks somewhat like diagonal > >wire cutters with a curved cutting edge). The hind claws never do any > >damage, and the trimmed front claws keep them from snagging or ripping > >anything, yet they can still use them for traction on the carpet. > > -Brian Smithson > > Sounds like a good way to do it. I have two questions, though. > > One: I have heard that cats whose claws are trimmed will scratch MORE--in order > to resharpen the trimmed claws. Is this true, or just an old-wives tale. > (and who are those old wives who are always telling tales, anyway? :-)) > > Two: How do you keep them quiet for this? They must be very calm cats. > > > -- > > Sue Brezden > > ... (1) I haven't noticed tham scratching more (or less) after trimming. They do scratch, but they get a rather frustrated look on their little faces. Anyway, the scratching doesn't damage anything, and so it doesn't matter. (2) I guess this depends upon the cat. I recommend you try to outnumber the cat. I hold the cat on his (or her) back in my lap. I stroke the cat with one hand, and I with the other hand I hold the cat under his "armpit" so as to keep him from pulling his leg in toward his body. My wife holds the leg with one hand and clips with the other. The cats remain remarkably calm. Best of luck! -- -Brian Smithson Calma Company ucbvax!calma!smithson calma!smithson@ucbvax.ARPA "Two nuclear bombs can ruin your whole weekend"
dxa@bentley.UUCP (DR Anolick) (08/02/85)
> Why do people EVER declaw their cats? (other than vets who do it to make $$?) > I'd like to hear some reasons for this. > Liz Vaughan > ...tektronix!tektools!lizv Well, I finally decided that I should get in on this debate. In answer to the above question, there is one very good reason to declaw cats which I have not seen mentioned during this current debate. That is to protect children in the house. A few years ago, when my brother's daughter was in her crawling stage, the cat in the family gave my neice a nice cut with its front claws. I saw the scratch, it was about a half an inch from her eye. Their cat was declawed shortly afterwards. Granted not all cats are the same. My brother's cat has always been nasty, and was probably fed up with my neice's affections, which consisted of tail pulling. My cat is both very affectionate, and very playful. When he rolls on his back with his feet in the air it means either please rub my stomach, or please play with me. Sometimes I guess wrong and he give me a playful swat or bite when I expect nothing. So, how is a baby supposed to know that sometimes this animal will be a warm fuzzy, but sometimes it will be dangerous? (Yes the animal is playing, put that play may be dangerous to a baby.) I am a cat lover, and also feel that declawing should be avoided. For now, he has his claws, and a scratching post which he has been trained to use and does use. But unless I am convinced otherwise, I plan to have my cat declawed if I still have him when I have children. Any comments? My exposure to this problem have been with this one case only. I'm sure someone out there can tell me if there is a better solution. -- Droyan David Roy Anolick ihnp4!bentley!{droyan|dxa} ^ ^^^ ^^ "First COCAINE..., then CULTS..., now REPUBLICANISM! Just a fool for the latest passing fad, AREN'T YOU?!?"
lmv@houxa.UUCP (L.VANDERBILT) (08/03/85)
Droyan (David Roy Anolick) writes: > Well, I finally decided that I should get in on this debate. In > answer to the above question, there is one very good reason to declaw > cats which I have not seen mentioned during this current debate. > That is to protect children in the house. > I am a cat lover, and also feel that declawing should be avoided. > For now, he has his claws, and a scratching post which he has been > trained to use and does use. But unless I am convinced otherwise, > I plan to have my cat declawed if I still have him when I have children. > Any comments? My exposure to this problem have been with this one > case only. I'm sure someone out there can tell me if there is a > better solution. I agree that cats and BABYS don't mix, but neither do dogs and BABYS. I don't think it is a good idea to have pets around babies, but I think once the baby can walk there is not too much of a problem having a cat. My soon to be brother-in-law has 4 cats and 3 kids, the youngest being age 3. Since Peter could walk none of the cats will go near him, he has no fear of the cats and chases them (they hate it and will run and hide, even if they are sleeping and see him coming)... Most situations I have seen with cats and kids are that the cats are afraid of kids.. ihnp4!houxm!houxa!lmv
rbc@houxu.UUCP (R.CONNAGHAN) (08/09/85)
On the subject of cats and kids. I have one baby boy (6 months) and two cats. One cat already will tolorate just about any thing Ryan will do to him. They often sit nose-to-nose and can stare at each other for long lenths of time. This cat has never (and I mean never) scratched my wife of myself; even when doing terrible things like giving medication of cutting claws. The other cat is an other story. I will watch her more closely. The point of the story is that there are cats and there are cats. I will not leave cats and child unsupervised. -- Robert Connaghan WE 32100 Microprocessor Group AT&T Information System - Holmdel, N.J. houxu!rbc