slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (08/17/85)
>jak@whuxlm.UUCP (Keegan Joan) writes: >The other thing I would suggest (a controversial >topic in obedience training) is using food. I am a cat person myself, so I don't know much about obedience training (since cats don't obey by nature :-). This interested me. Why is using food controversial? -- Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your god may be dead, but mine aren't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jak@whuxlm.UUCP (Keegan Joan) (08/19/85)
> > I am a cat person myself, so I don't know much about obedience > training (since cats don't obey by nature :-). This interested > me. > > Why is using food controversial? > > > -- > > Sue Brezden > One reason I remember hearing is that, if you use food to train your dog, they will ONLY work if you use food. I have not found this to be the case. Even if I only reward my dog with food some of the time, he does the right thing the rest of the time too. (He always gets lots of praise whenever he does the right thing). I attended a seminar once on dog training by Charlotte Schwartz (she does a lot of obedience training and tracking in NJ), and her theory is that rewards for a dog are food and sex, and you can't give them the latter!?! Anyway, I think the trainers who believe in using food tend to lean more toward positive reinforcement than negative. Those that don't use food seem to go in for lots of jerking on training collars, ear pinching, prong collars, etc. I don't want to generalize too much, my experience is still limited. Joan Keegan AT&T-Bell Labs ..!whuxlm!whuxlg!jak
ayers@convexs.UUCP (08/21/85)
/* Written 7:33 am Aug 19, 1985 by jak@whuxlm.UUCP in convexs:net.pets */ One reason I remember hearing is that, if you use food to train your dog, they will ONLY work if you use food. I have not found this to be the case. /* End of text from convexs:net.pets */ You may indeed have heard this, but the reason usually given is that if you reward with food, the dog MAY not respond if it has found something else more interesting... This is only important if your dog is in a dangerous situation -- like within 100 ft of a road, another dog, strangers, etc... Well, that's one mystery less... blues, II
cushner@ttidcb.UUCP (Jeffrey Cushner) (08/21/85)
Dogs work wonderfully on praise. Being a pack animal, dogs have inbred
in them a strong social structure which revolves around dominance,
submission and knowing their place in the pack hierarchy.
Social communication within the pack is based on a complex series
of expressions, body movements and actions. These, combined, relate
correction, praise, affection, etc.
It is the NATURAL way in which dogs communicate and function within
their family unit. When you take a dog into your home, this is, to your
dog, his or her pack. Instinctively, he will attempt to fit in as best
he can.
He asks for only a few things:
- To be fed
domesticated dogs usually never get the chance to hunt, in the wild,
for their food.
- To be treated fairly (in a canine way).
This means not being overly corrected (or overly praised, also)
or LEFT OUT OF THE PACK'S LIFE (ie. outside, by himself)
- To know his place in the pack
This is done by proper correction, praise and training.
By bribing your dog with treats, you are shortcutting this essential
social interaction which is designed to keep the pack together and
your dog loyal to you.
Your dog needs to eat and "performing" is one way to get food that
he likes. He doesn't, however, view it as gratitude from the person
for being good. He views it as a way to get food. Period.
This accomplishes nothing for the pack (or in this case family) unity.
He might even start demanding that he gets it (or in other words, start
thinking himself dominant.)
In training for the breeding show ring, dog handlers often give their
charges treats while trotting them. The treats are usually kept in
the handler's left pocket, close the the dog's head. In this form
of baiting, the dog's head is kept up in the air, close to the pocket,
because he expects the treat to come to it. To the show judge, it
looks better because with the head up in the air, it gives the dog
a better appearance.
When you are showing a dog for breed, obviously, you are concerned
with winning, and money to be gained from selling the show dog or
his or her puppies. Baiting like this works. But, I am not talking
about an artificial construct of humanity, as are dog shows. I am
talking about the lifestyle of dogs within our family structure.
Many obedience trainers tell their clients to bait their dogs, so they
work better for them, both in home and in shows. I, myself, dislike
the practice, since, after the show they are still your pets.
I approve of treats in these cases:
- To get a dog used to a new environment such as a crate or a doghouse.
- To give a treat to your dog for no reason other than you love him.
By this I mean no performing, without his prior knowledge; just give
him one every once in a while.
- Every once in a while, it becomes necessary to give a dog a treat
in a special instance but it is needed so infrequently that it
is not worth pointing out here.
For cats and other animals who do not work for praise as much as dogs,
to be trained, usually must be given treats as positive reinforcement.
So it is quite common to see dolphins, seals, etc. working for their
"pay" since food is a powerful incentive.
So if you own a cat and want him to perform behaviors, treats are fine,
but if you own a dog, think about what I've related here.
Sorry for the length, but it takes so much energy to climb up
on my soapbox sometimes that I feel I must stay up longer.
--
==============================================================================
Jeff Cushner @
Citicorp-TTI
Santa Monica CA 90405
(213) 450-9111 x2273
{randvax,trwrb,vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcb!cushner
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*********************************************************************notch@srcsip.UUCP (Michael k Notch) (08/25/85)
In article <811@whuxlm.UUCP> jak@whuxlm.UUCP (Keegan Joan) writes: >> >> Why is using food controversial? >> >> Sue Brezden >> >One reason I remember hearing is that, if you use food to train your >dog, they will ONLY work if you use food. I have not found this to be the case. >Even if I only reward my dog with food some of the time, he does the right thing >the rest of the time too. (He always gets lots of praise whenever he does the >right thing). > >Joan Keegan >AT&T-Bell Labs >..!whuxlm!whuxlg!jak I have a lot of experience with dogs and I know that if you give a dod food they will obey you again thinking they will get food again. If you do not give them food everytime, they will eventually get "grumpy" and "irritable" and not listen to you anymore. This has happened to me already. The best way to train a dog is to use a constant voice(usually low and no emotion) and a training collar. After awhile, you do not need the callar because the dog will respect your authority. The more constant you keep your voice when giving orders to the dog, the better, because he/she will know when you are talking to him/her. After he/she performs what you ask them to do, give them lots of praise so that they know that what they did was right. Sorry for going so long. -- But... What about Naomi? USENET: ihnp4!umn-cs!srcsip!notch US-SMAIL: Michael k Notch (The small k is on purpose) MN17-2349 [1-612-378-5338] Honeywell Inc. Systems & Research Center 2600 Ridgeway Parkway NE Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 --