MEAD%usc-eclb@sri-unix.UUCP (10/16/83)
From: Dick <MEAD@usc-eclb> Bravo! Herb. Some people on this and other lists I have seen really do take themselves much too seriously. I wonder where he was when the "REAL PROGRAMMER" stuff was hip deep? Maybe you are asking questions he can't answer, and it bugs him (?) How's about a big, juicy Bronx cheer!?!?!?! -------
Chapman.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA (10/17/83)
Herb I don't see anything wrong with your asking questions. I suspect that if anyone asked a question that you could answer, you would respond. I think that the dls are very useful as a question/answer forum. Cheryl (Chapman.ES @ PARC-MAXC.ARPA)
ron%brl-vgr@sri-unix.UUCP (10/24/83)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-vgr> Good god. Don't mention HAM and Children's Band in the same breath. -Ron
POURNE%mit-mc@sri-unix.UUCP (10/24/83)
From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE@mit-mc> Holy Catfish! When dealing with churlish people, there is no appropriate response, I suppose. Query: HOW DO you use BABYL to flush messages from someone you don't want to hear from? I certainly don't know, and I suspect there are a dozen others who would like to know (and didn't know it was possible.) Keep smiling.
LIN%mit-ml@sri-unix.UUCP (10/26/83)
From: Herb Lin <LIN@mit-ml> About two weeks ago, I forwarded to these lists an exchange between myself and another person who believed that the ratio of my questions to the list to the information I provided to the list was unacceptably high. I asked the list to comment, since I was looking for advice. Here are the replies I got from the lists. I have edited out names so as to not violate privacy. Also, I got a number of messages (about three) which said they agreed with another respondant, but I had edited out the names by then, and so I couldn't tell with whom they were agreeing. Sorry. In addition, two messages were incomprehensible. One other point: I should ** NOT ** have included the name of the person who sent me mail complaining about my use of the lists the in the first place; this was a serious breach of privacy, and I have apologized to him. I feel particularly bad that people directed to him personally abusive mail. I forwarded the substance of the correspondence to the list, because I wanted guidance, and I have no regrets about that, but in my view abusive mail has no business on the lists under any circumstances. Please let this msg be the end of this saga this time. Herb Lin ********************** If you have questions ask them. If some one feels that you ask to many then that person can just not read mail you send, BUT I WILL BE DAMNED if he will prevent me from reading the mail you send. This is still a free country! *************************** I suspect your adversary has a brain-damaged mail reader. At BRL, if I choose not to read mail from you, I simply type 'delete from Herb Lin' and all your messages go away. What about appropriate use of CPM and MICRO lists? These are common user resources; the users determine what's appropriate. If you think that you have legitimate questions, then it is your right to post them to the net. I, too, am a little disappointed by the condition of summaries posted to the net. I suppose that most people read rather than write. Again, that's not any individual's fault, but the fault of all of us, collectively, for failing to help out our fellow person. Byrne's attack on you actually embarrassed me. I suppose anyone can get to a point of frustration. For that, I forgive him and apologize to you. Keep up your questions; many of the rest of us need the answers as well. ********************** Herb and Byrne, Two comments. First, use of the list, policys on messages, and general message content are all controlled by the LIST MANAGER. This is currently Ron Natalie RON@BRL-VGR and he should be the one to get any complaints on how it is run. Secondly, mailing lists are a source of discussion, learning, and experience dictating on micros. One cannot simply wait for information to spew forth from the more knowledgeable users, it usually has to be asked for. Often, there may be only one or two people who can answer a particular query and consequently there may be only a few responses. If you are waiting anxiously for a series of posted reponses let the person know and I am sure he/she will gladly forward copies of any responses to you. To wrap it up, the INFO-MICRO list is DESIGNED to be a question and answer forum for a large user base, with new members arriving and leaving every day. Not everyone provides all answers, and not everyone is all questions. However anyone can be one or the other and still be perfectly within the scope of this list. Misuse consists of advertising commericial ventures, products, or services, public name calling (this is an open forum you know) and possibly sending the message that generated this response, in the future keep your personal differences to yourself or message RON@BRL-VGR.ARPA or have your name removed from the list. The choice is yours. ************************* Vell, sharlie, it appearrs that you have uncovered the dread ten toed bi-ped closet flammer --and he appears to have a severe case of a hair up his butt. Ain't nothin' wurse than a rabid flammer with an infected rectal follicle. Frankly, flammer (Mr. Byrne), got a dime? If you don't I will gladly loan you one so that you can call someone who cares. Who appointed you as the guiding light, all around guru and all knowing censor for CPM and MICRO? Questions DO contribute a hell of a lot to lists. One question or comment can function as the catalyst that produces virtually volumes of information. A smart man once said "One man's meat is another man's poison." The question you don't like may be one I am having trouble with and consequently have a great deal of desire to see answered. Yeah, we do get an awful lot of inane and redundant questions. The simple and unobnoxious solution is go on to the next entry. *********************** I must agree with you. This (info-micro and info-cpm) is a forum for exchange of ideas and assistance in solving perplexing situations. I am, unfortunatly, also ignorant in grass-roots computing and have only a general knowledge. Therefore, I welcome the chance to question the "masters" , "experts" or anyone with more expertise in this area than I. I consider this forum more of a learning experience than a "mailing list" per se. ************************ Approximately 1 message out of 50 on this list is of interest to me, so I'm obliged to wade thru the trash looking for these little "pearls". It never occured to me to suggest that the trash generators should "shut up". Perhaps you should simply ignore BYRNE and let *him* take his case to the dl directly. I suspect a lot of defenders for your cause would spontaneously arise. In particular, while wading thru the miles of trash, I often see some interesting question brought up by the likes of yourself, and though I'd scarcely feel like replying, I sure hate to see such questionings ruled out. ************************** I don't even remember your specific questions, so they couldn't have annoyed me very much. On the other hand, I'm even more of a novice than you in the CPM world. I occasionally get annoyed when someone asks a question that could have been answered by a casual reading of readily available documentation - were yours of that nature? Also, I'm getting the feeling that too many of the people on the list are too modest. There aren't enough of the "Gee, look at this neat {little trick I just discovered, little hack I just wrote, etc}" kind of messages. Perhaps this reticence is because there are too many of the "Why are you wasting our time with these {amateur, obvious, stupid, etc} contributions?" kind of messages. ********************* I too have asked a lot of questions, being new to the micro world. I haven't been hassled by intolerant folks of the sort quoted in your message- just lucky I guess. I like the freedom to ask dumb questions and the very kind responses I've gotten to many. I too have not contributed much to the list- others are much better qualified and I am as yet a CPM wizard's apprentice- but many local folks have not asked dumb questions, because I've shared the net wisdom garnered from my questioning. Count one vote in your favor and please feel free to forward my response. ******************** Sorry to say, but the majority of your messages are QUITE obnoxious. Feel free to continue to send them - but do your best to give them serious thought before you do; check all your spelling, general format of the message, and try to (this is all the mailer sent to me - HL) *************************** Sorry to hear about the flap on CPM mailing list... I got hassled once for posting messages that were specific to cpm apples. The people on the list said I was being reasonable, though, when I asked them much as you have done. My money says to ignore the gripe and continue on as before. I'd also suggest that you do indeed assume there is interest in any info you receive in response to queries and post it to the list. In fact I assumed that was what you were doing all along, so I'm now confused -- were you in fact only posting summaries when you got additional messages from people requesting copies of info you obtained? In any case, I think its appropriate to ask questions on the list! (What do you say, NETLAND? Should I make this assumption?) ****************************** I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS ON HOW YOU USE THE MAILER AND INFO NETS. I OFTEN FIND MANY OF THE QUESTINS ONES THAT I MYSELF AM CURIOUS ABOUT. ****************************** I agree with you completely, Herb. I have been on these lists for several years and have just been able to add meaningful information in the last six months. (In defense of myself, I have been a heavy TRSDOS/LDOS user and just started into CP/M. One other thing that you forgot to mention was that of any ten responses to a request for information, eight will be asking for you to forward on any other info that comes into your mailbox. I also thought that your message asking for feedback was well written and has less flame than an old bottle of Tabasco sauce. I doubt that I would have responded so civily. **************************** Herb - I have not been the least bit bothered by your questions. I feel that the whole idea of interest-group mail would be compromised if people were to insist on a rigid accounting of give and take. In other words, "your back needs scratching when it itches, not on schedule". Of course, one can abuse this kind of relationship, but I have no reason to suspect that you will not contribute when you have reached "critical mass" in the micro-field and have something to contribute. The only thing that I find really annoying on these mail-lists is grumbling. I don't mind people asking questions, but I feel that grumbling wastes my time. So as far as I'm concerned, ask away. ***************** Herb, maybe there is such a thing as "abusing the net-public", I would imagine so, but I have NO opinion about your guilt of such an offense. But I am certain that there is a polite and an impolite way of addressing someone else, and I can't stand impoliteness and arrogance the way your "adversary" expressed himself. takes all his credibility away, in my book anyway, and I support your complaint for that reason, if for no other. Keep on trucking. I don't post this, as I feel that it is unfortunate that it even needed bringing up, and hope the topic dies down soon. But I agree, when uncertain, ask if the "general public" feels offended by your actions. ***************************** Bravo! Herb. Some people on this and other lists I have seen really do take themselves much too seriously. I wonder where he was when the "REAL PROGRAMMER" stuff was hip deep? Maybe you are asking questions he can't answer, and it bugs him (?) How's about a big, juicy Bronx cheer!?!?!?! **************************** (the following msg was sent to BYRNE, who forwarded it to me; I have deleted some of the personal attacks against him which it contained.) I don't know where you get your ideas of how the mailing lists should be run, but I must ask you to look at the first archive file which has the opening msg. in it. It says that the Info-MICRO list is for "the aid of all microcomputer users, no matter how much experience they have.". The archives in Info-CPM say likewise. **************************** herb, i have been on this list for about 12-15 months now and have never seen any "quotas" discussed or imposed on this net. i also am sure there is no "required level of knowledge" to participate in its use. i believe you have, in the message from this person non-persona,a very good example of the inappropriate use of these lists. i wonder how many fingers on how many hands, it would take to count this guy's contributions to the net?? anyway,keep asking the questions,usualy there are many others who can profit by the answers. **************************** This list is for exchange of information. If no-one asked any questions, no-one would give any answers. **************************** I don't see anything wrong with your asking questions. I suspect that if anyone asked a question that you could answer, you would respond. I think that the dls are very useful as a question/answer forum. ********************** You can qoute me as being on your side: I don't see any reason for this forum to be used as communications among equals. The great part of it is that those whoe know less can learn form those who know more. *************************** Agree with your response. I often find the questions as useful as the responses. ************************ Holy Catfish! When dealing with churlish people, there is no appropriate response, I suppose. ********************* While I am a novice of the net-mail-list world, I have never heard of (and would be BITTERLY dissapointed to hear of) any type of quota or limit imposed on the number of questions asked. If I were you, I would just remember that there are a lot more horses asses than horses in the world and write this guy off. ************************* Re: Your Byrne friend Sue the sucker....