joyceb@ptsfc.UUCP (Joyce Black) (01/30/85)
...what we know is not what they tell us... Regarding "favorite black" categories, I quote W. E. B. Du Bois: "It is a peculiar sensation, this double-conciousness, this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of the world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. One ever feels his two-ness, an American, a Negro; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings: two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder." Du Bois said that in 1902. A 1985 version might change Negro to Black. Racism is so deep in American attitudes that it often goes unrecognized. It is so deep that its expression goes unnoticed except by those to whom it is directed. It is so systematically encouraged that when one has that "peculiar sensation", one is more likely to think oneself too sensitive rather trying to deal with the very real duality of life as a Black American. Joyce Black ...none but ourselves can frree our minds...
moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) (02/03/85)
I'm not sure I'd call The American Music Awards representative of the US.
In fact, I don't think I'd call The American Music Awards representative of
anything that walks on two legs or doesn't urinate on fire hydrants...
"Now, for the LAST TIME, old man, WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?"
"And as I told you *already*, sir, I'm SELF-EMPLOYED and PROUD OF IT!"
Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPAslf@panda.UUCP (Scott Fisher) (02/06/85)
Distribution: In article <285@ptsfc.UUCP> joyceb@ptsfc.UUCP (Joyce Black) writes: >...what we know is not what they tell us... > >Racism is so deep in American attitudes that it often goes unrecognized. >It is so deep that its expression goes unnoticed except by those to >whom it is directed. It is so systematically encouraged that when one >has that "peculiar sensation", one is more likely to think oneself too >sensitive rather trying to deal with the very real duality of life >as a Black American. > > Joyce Black Let's see, There is the American Music Awards with a special catagory for black singers, there is the United Negro College Fund ("a mind is a terible thing to waste") And in many places there are quotas for hiring blacks and other minoritys. I think these things are *very* racist! What do you think would happen if somebody tried to organize the United White College Fund? or a special music award for white singers? By making special catagorys for blacks you are saying they are different. If special awards, scolarships and quotas like this were eliminated I think much predjudice would be eliminated. Before you hit the "f" key, scolarships should be "global", excluding *nobody*. Scott
nm34@sdcc12.UUCP (nm34) (02/09/85)
> Let's see, There is the American Music Awards with a special catagory for > black singers, there is the United Negro College Fund ("a mind is a terible > thing to waste") And in many places there are quotas for hiring blacks and > other minoritys. I think these things are *very* racist! > > What do you think would happen if somebody tried to organize > the United White College Fund? or a special music award for white singers? > > By making special catagorys for blacks you are saying they are different. > If special awards, scolarships and quotas like this were eliminated I think > much predjudice would be eliminated. Before you hit the "f" key, scolarships > should be "global", excluding *nobody*. > > Scott You are forgetting, Scott, that in our country, blacks are different. They have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything to be equal. Dont forget that there was a United White Persons College Fund and affirmative action for whites for years. Its just now that blacks and other minorities are getting a chance.Things wont be "equal" until we get everyone in the race up to the same place. Then we can ignor color and treat everyone the same. Andy Bindman p.s. Sorry that this isn't on net.politics but I had to respond.
gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (02/09/85)
> From: slf@panda.UUCP (Scott Fisher) >> In article <285@ptsfc.UUCP> joyceb@ptsfc.UUCP (Joyce Black) writes: >> ...what we know is not what they tell us... >> >> Racism is so deep in American attitudes that it often goes unrecognized. >> It is so deep that its expression goes unnoticed except by those to >> whom it is directed. It is so systematically encouraged that when one >> has that "peculiar sensation", one is more likely to think oneself too >> sensitive rather trying to deal with the very real duality of life >> as a Black American. >> >> Joyce Black > Let's see, There is the American Music Awards with a special catagory for > black singers, there is the United Negro College Fund ("a mind is a terible > thing to waste") And in many places there are quotas for hiring blacks and > other minoritys. I think these things are *very* racist! (1) The "special" categories for black singers are not EXCLUSIVELY for black singers, but designate a type of music which black people typically enjoy. It so happens that black people typically make such music, therefore they are usually the ones who win the awards. If you think black music awards are restricted to blacks, you have never heard of KC and the Sunshine Band, Foxy, Teena Marie, Hall & Oates, and a bunch of other white artists who have done very well on the r&b charts (and some have even won the black music category awards in past years). (2) The UNCF (United Negro College Fund) was set up in order that blacks who would otherwise not have the chance to attend college (due to financial, societal and other conditions) but who demonstrated the capability to succeed if conditions were otherwise would have the chance. It is not meant to segregate against non-blacks, rather to enable blacks (who, historically, have been among the most misfortunate, if not the most misfortunate Americans, when it comes to upward social/financial mobility) to have the chance to suc- ceed. The same can be said for black hiring quotas, affirmative action, etc. > What do you think would happen if somebody tried to organize > the United White College Fund? or a special music award for white singers? Well, actually, someone once did try to organize the United White "Rid America of Every Other Type of Person but Us WASPs" Organization, otherwise known as the KKK. I think that says enough. > By making special catagorys for blacks you are saying they are different. > If special awards, scolarships and quotas like this were eliminated I think > much predjudice would be eliminated. Before you hit the "f" key, scolarships > should be "global", excluding *nobody*. Now, for once, I understand the arguments for net.women.only, etc. It is attitudes like the above that are the cause of prejudice, not the reasons stated above. I thought that we were above the level of crying "spilt milk" because a minority got a job/got into a college/got whatever and a non-minority didn't. Chances are the non-minority's chances to get what he/she wanted were much better than the minority's. And, let us not forget, the whole thing star- ted when whites enslaved blacks, took them OUT OF THEIR HOMELAND AGAINST THEIR WILL and forced them to work their land, with NO PAY, with NO HOPE of freedom. They were OWNED by their masters, treated as CHATTEL, sold at the master's wills, families split up, some were raped, some were killed trying to escape (I digress ...). For any of you who think you are being discriminated because you are losing things to minorities, why don't you try imagining being a minority for once and knowing that doors are closed to you still because of who you are, and that no matter what you do you cannot change your fate. Flames welcome. -- If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo
gam@amdahl.UUCP (gam) (02/11/85)
> [Blacks] have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What > you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their > oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything > to be equal. Dont forget that there was a United White Persons College > Fund and affirmative action for whites for years. Its just now that > blacks and other minorities are getting a chance.Things wont be "equal" until we get everyone in the race up > to the same place. Then we can ignor color and treat everyone the same. > > Andy Bindman You know, there are a lot more Asians in the "hard sciences" that either Whites or other minorities. I think we should make laws to prefer non-Asians to Asians in mathematics, genetics, and computer science jobs. Until the non-Asians are up with the Asians. And then we can call it "Affirmative Action" so that it sounds like a good thing to do. But did you know that Affirmative Action doesn't help poor Blacks? It helps middle- and upper-class Blacks, but not the poor. Yet another well-intended government program goes awry. -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!gam
mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) (02/11/85)
From: nm34@sdcc12 ? (nm34) > You are forgetting, Scott, that in our country, blacks are >different. They have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What >you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their >oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything >to be equal. Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors* did? Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years ago. But the people who were hurt by it (the slaves) certainly aren't the o nes getting the affirmative action, and the people who did the hurting aren't being punished. Sure, blacks were enslaved and women were treated as inferiors, BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing women to stay home. Excuse me if I sound unsympathetic, but I've been asked my race and sex once too often and told that it mattered. (And for a slightly different angle: how many blacks and women resent affirmative action as an indication that they can't get jobs on their own merits?) I prefer to get hired because I'm qualified, thank you. And I'd like to know that my co-workers are competent, and are really the best people for the job. -Dragon -- UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (02/12/85)
In article <293@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA> mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) writes: >From: nm34@sdcc12 ? (nm34) >BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing >women to stay home. Actually, there is still discrimination going on today against blacks and women. It has not stopped. I've seen it often (and I am not black or a woman). The laws now give a person some recourse if it happens to them. >I prefer to get hired because I'm qualified, thank you. And I'd like to know >that my co-workers are competent, and are really the best people for the job. > -Dragon Then do so without all the bitching. -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (02/12/85)
> You know, there are a lot more Asians in the "hard sciences" that > either Whites or other minorities. I think we should make laws > to prefer non-Asians to Asians in mathematics, genetics, and > computer science jobs. Until the non-Asians are up with the > Asians. And then we can call it "Affirmative Action" so that > it sounds like a good thing to do. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** No, no, no. What we really need to do is increase affirmative action so that there will be encouragement of Asians in the liberal arts field. That way we Japs and Chinks will dominate the world one day, like God intended. :-) Love, Ellen
schmidt@reed.UUCP (Alan Schmidt) (02/13/85)
:-b > I think we should make laws :-b > to prefer non-Asians to Asians in mathematics, genetics, and :-b > computer science jobs. And then we can call it "Affirmative :-b > Action" so that it sounds like a good thing to do. :-b :-b No, no, no. What we really need to do is increase affirmative :-b action so that there will be encouragement of Asians in the :-b liberal arts field. That way we Japs and Chinks will dominate :-b the world one day, like God intended. :-) You forgot "Choeg," Ellen, you stupid Nip. You should know by now that God inteded us Gweilo's (Cantonese for Gaijin) to dominate the world. Where's your head at, anyway? (That's to get you back for flaming my Prince article :-)) Alan ..tektronix!reed!schmidt
presley@mhuxb.UUCP (Joe Presley) (02/14/85)
>You forgot "Choeg," Ellen, you stupid Nip. You should know by now that >God inteded us Gweilo's (Cantonese for Gaijin) to dominate the world. Gaijin is too good a word; let's try Yabanjin. Everyone knows that it's those of us with Yamato-damashii who will dominate :-). -- Joe Presley (ihnp4!mhuxn!presley)
jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (02/18/85)
> >You forgot "Choeg," Ellen, you stupid Nip. You should know by now that > >God inteded us Gweilo's (Cantonese for Gaijin) to dominate the world. > > Gaijin is too good a word; let's try Yabanjin. Everyone knows that > it's those of us with Yamato-damashii who will dominate :-). > -- > > Joe Presley (ihnp4!mhuxn!presley) Please keep this stuff out of net.music. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak
shor@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Melinda Shore) (02/19/85)
[] >From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) >Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors* >did? Alas, as I see it, the problem isn't that we've got to atone for past transgressions, but that here and now women and minorities don't get a fair shake. White men don't need legislation or "space" ensuring that they will be treated fairly. Why don't we assume that the treatment of white males is a standard against which we can judge the treatment of everybody else? I'm not crazy about Affirmative Action, either, but I do believe that there is a need for something. (My favorite EEOC story is about a friend of my family who worked for them, and took them to court for sex discrimination ... ) -- Melinda Shore, Microcomputer Laboratory University of Chicago Computation Center uucp: ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!shor Mailnet: staff.melinda@UChicago.Mailnet Bitnet: shor%sphinx@uchicago.bitnet ARPA: staff.melinda%UChicago.Mailnet@mit-multics.arpa